Extensor Action and Swinging

Jimmy
How do you continue to apply extensor action in the downswing without "hitting"? More specifically, how does a swinger apply extensor action in the downswing and not disrupt CF? I can't help but feel like I'm hitting when I am conscious of extensor action.
jim_0068
Sounds like you're overdoing extensor action. Some people may not like me saying this, this way but oh well:

Extensor action is just simply there to keep your left arm straight. Thats it. If you have problems of breaking down your left arm throughout the swing, THEN worry about it. If you don't, don't worry about it and focus more on something you need to fix.
6bmike
Originally Posted by Jimmy How do you continue to apply extensor action in the downswing without "hitting"? More specifically, how does a swinger apply extensor action in the downswing and not disrupt CF? I can't help but feel like I'm hitting when I am conscious of extensor action.
Extensor Action is a PULL- not a PUSH. It is the Pull or stretching of the left arm into a straight line.

What some don’t realize about extensor action is it starts the back stroke- it is a two way action. I slight tugging on the left thumb or hand by the right hand (a reverse pp#3) as the right arm folds at the elbow is extensor action. Extensor Action and the right forearm take-away is a match made in Heaven- well, Seattle, Washington for sure.
In one of the clips where Lynn goes from Hitting to Swinging he verbalize what he does- at the start of the back swing he says, “applying extensor action..” Extensor action is applied from Impact fix and is maintained to the end of the follow through.

If you are actively driving your right arm onto your left arm, you may not be a “True Swinger”- one that lets CF release accumulators #2 and #3. Nothing wrong with that either. The “Swing” Stroke does allow for manipulated hands to release accumulators #2 and #3 also.

Try to think of extensor action as a pull or a tug not a driving of the right arm, as if your left arm was a bungee cord and needs a pull on it.
6bmike
Just hit some balls in the backyard after my post.

What can I say Extensor Action rules.

Applying a pull to tauten the left arm from address to follow through straightens the left arm and guarantees proper delivery of the clubhead. You can have a straight left arm without applying extensor action but with none of the advantages.

If you haven't downloaded Yoda's old posts on .pdf, do so. He teaches this better than anyone.
Matt
Another thing that you shouldn't glance over when discussing extensor action is how it provides structure to the power package. When I did some work with Ted, he had me working more on extensor action because of the 'underplane' downstroke motion I have a tendency to exhibit. My left arm was straight, but my extensor action was nonetheless lacking.

What would happen was at startdown I would drop the shaft a little underplane, and my right elbow would be very bent and approaching from the inside - a "perversion" of 'sit-and-tilt' if you will. When I applied correct extensor action, it felt as though my right arm couldn't get any straighter at startdown and the clubshaft felt very much 'in front' of me. However, the camera doesn't lie and this type of feeling put me right on the turned shoulder plane coming down.

So not only does extensor action keep the left arm radius constant, but it also firms up the power package structure via the right arm.
Anonymous
Originally Posted by Jimmy How do you continue to apply extensor action in the downswing without "hitting"? More specifically, how does a swinger apply extensor action in the downswing and not disrupt CF? I can't help but feel like I'm hitting when I am conscious of extensor action.

Hmmmmm read and study 6-B-1-D for the answer to your question...it's interesting that 6-B-1-D says "Extensor Action gives an indispensable control to all Strokes." It's also interesting that Homer capitalizes the word Strokes for emphasis!!! Could you we all be discussing one of the most important concepts of the Book.....other than section 2-0???

I have a copy of Tomasello's July 1991 interview in a PDF file, if anyone wants a copy PM me....in so many words he talks about this very issue!!!

DG
Yoda
Originally Posted by 6bmike Try to think of extensor action as a pull or a tug not a driving of the right arm, as if your left arm was a bungee cord and needs a pull on it.
Great, Mike. You're right on.

Ben Doyle, G.S.E.D., teaches many of his lessons in the near-perpetual 'sweater weather' of Carmel, California. When he demonstrates Extensor Action, he uses his right hand to tug downward the sweater sleeve of his Left Arm.

Now, that's a demonstration we can all understand!
Matt
You're trying to straighten your bent right arm, but the left arm keeps the right arm from fully straightening. The feel should be that if you take the left arm off the club, the right arm will instantly straighten out.

Whether you 'feel' a push or a pull, you're pushing. The right triceps is being activated regardless of your personal feel, and that muscle is used for pushing (as opposed to the biceps, which is used for pulling).
Yoda
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by 6bmike Try to think of extensor action as a pull or a tug not a driving of the right arm, as if your left arm was a bungee cord and needs a pull on it.
Great, Mike. You're right on.

Ben Doyle, G.S.E.D., teaches many of his lessons in the near-perpetual 'sweater weather' of Carmel, California. When he demonstrates Extensor Action, he uses his right hand to tug downward the sweater sleeve of his Left Arm.

Now, that's a demonstration we can all understand!
Yoda,

Then why does the first sentence of 6-B-1-D say..."EXTENSOR ACTION is exclusively the steady effort to straighten the bent Right Arm"???


DG
[Bold by Yoda.]
Because that is what it is, DG: The steady effort to straighten the Bent Right Arm.

But, alas, the Left Arm Leash constrains the unruly Bent Right Arm, and hence, despite its best effort...

Until the Left Arm moves away from the Right Shoulder in the Downstroke...

The Right Arm cannot even begin to straighten.
Yoda
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Yoda,

Then why does the first sentence of 6-B-1-D say..."EXTENSOR ACTION is exclusively the steady effort to straighten the bent Right Arm"???


DG
[Bold by Yoda.]
Because that is what it is, DG: The steady effort to straighten the Bent Right Arm.

But, alas, the Left Arm Leash constrains the unruly Bent Right Arm, and hence, despite its best effort...

Until the Left Arm moves away from the Right Shoulder in the Downstroke...

The Right Arm cannot even begin to straighten.

These comments seem to contradict Tomasello's explanation of Extensor Action???

DG
Please provide any conflicting Tomasello version, DG, and I will be happy to comment.

Meanwhile, suffice it to say that the normal condition of the Arms (6-A-4) is that the Left Arm is always Straight and the Right Arm is always Bent until the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position).
Jimmy
Originally Posted by Yoda Please provide any conflicting Tomasello version, DG, and I will be happy to comment.

Meanwhile, suffice it to say that the normal condition of the Arms (6-A-4) is that the Left Arm is always Straight and the Right Arm is always Bent until the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position).
I may be off, but it seems to conflict with Tomasello's idea that "the right arm is always DRIVING down the line". It is toward the end of the "Chapter 2" Tomasello video. I am a little confused by what he is saying here as he appears to contradict himself with this notion. He seems to really favor Swinging over Hitting but then, if the right arm is "always driving down the line", isn't that a Hitting procedure?
Yoda
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by 6bmike Try to think of extensor action as a pull or a tug not a driving of the right arm, as if your left arm was a bungee cord and needs a pull on it.
Great, Mike. You're right on.

Ben Doyle, G.S.E.D., teaches many of his lessons in the near-perpetual 'sweater weather' of Carmel, California. When he demonstrates Extensor Action, he uses his right hand to tug downward the sweater sleeve of his Left Arm.

Now, that's a demonstration we can all understand!

Yoda,

The above is for starters.....contrast, Tomasello talks about driving the right forearm to a long right arm in his explanation of Extensor Action.....

One major difference between Yoda and Tomasello in their discussion of extensor action:

Yoda: "An unruly bent Right Arm"

Tomasello: "Magic of the Right Forearm"


[Bold by Yoda.]
DG,

Addressing your two points:

First, regarding my comment "An unruly Bent Right Arm," I defer to 6-B-1-0 and my mentor, Homer Kelley:

"Consequently, during Release, the Right Arm can straighten only as the Left Arm moves away from the Right Shoulder. This results in a smooth, even Thrust for acceleration of the Lever Assemblies from an otherwise unruly force."

Second, I love The Magic of the Right Forearm. I teach it every day. However, even with its Forearm Magic, the Right Arm can be only as long as it is straight. And as stated in my prior post, the Right Arm is never Straight until the end of the Follow-Through (8-11). By definition (6-A-4). Which means that until then, it is Bent:

At Address.

During the Start Up, Backstroke and at the Top.

During the Start Down, Downstroke and Release.

At Impact and until the end of the Follow-Through...

When finally both Arms become straight.
Yoda
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf I know Tomasello would agree with you regarding the bent right arm through impact and to an arms straight condition post impact.

What about the driving right arm and extensor action (for swinging), I believe that is the real issue?

DG
You're right, Dave. That's the beautiful thing about Extensor Action:

Drive as you might -- with Centrifugal Throwout Action (Swinging) or Muscular Drive Out Action (Hitting) -- you can't get the Right Arm straight until the end of the Follow Through.

Result?

Perfect Rhythm.

The Right Arm driving the #3 Accumulator (the In-Line Left Arm and Club)...

Through Impact....

The same way...

Time after time.
Yoda
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf Thanks for the exchange Yoda....interesting as always.
You're welcome, Dave.

Thanks for your many contributions to our site. You make us all think, and that's the 'kick in the rump' we all need to move to the next level.
Abudoggie
Originally Posted by Yoda You're right, Dave. That's the beautiful thing about Extensor Action:

Drive as you might -- with Centrifugal Throwout Action (Swinging) or Muscular Drive Out Action (Hitting) -- you can't get the Right Arm straight until the end of the Follow Through.

Result?

Perfect Rhythm.

The Right Arm driving the #3 Accumulator (the In-Line Left Arm and Club)...

Through Impact....

The same way...

Time after time.

I think Tomasello also emphasizes that point at 4:30 into Chapter 3 on Hands:

"You fire that right hand out. Try to undo the bend. You won't be able to undo it....because your left hip will be pulling behind you....you see?

(Chuckle) You wont be able to undo it! ...as long as your left hip clears, your eyes follow the ball...you CANNOT possibly do what we call "throw it away"! But there is the power my friend that most of you have been missing perhaps all your golfing lives."


I am all over this stuff because I DO throw-it-away and precisely because my left stops turning.

I turn back, return to center and swing my arms straight along target but get "stopped up" because I quit turning to my left (or more likely my body is really turning but arms are outpacing).

Great stuff.. I am hoping to get that feeling Tomasella descibes "the club will feel like its trying to pull YOU down the line".

Abudoggie
jpkrooked
I am such a newborn so lots of really simple questions.

Doesn't the concept of extensor action in the backswing for the most part, contradict most conventional teachers, who say that a soft left arm is preferred?

I am hoping that the answer is yes!

JP
neil
It may be just the terminology but the left arm does not extend on it's own. EXTENSOR ACTION is all right arm .The left arm is "inert" it is being pulled.As for "conventional"-who has explained the golf swing ( or hit)?..".complexity is far more acceptable and workable than mystery is"
6bmike
Originally Posted by jpkrooked I am such a newborn so lots of really simple questions.

Doesn't the concept of extensor action in the backswing for the most part, contradict most conventional teachers, who say that a soft left arm is preferred?

I am hoping that the answer is yes!

JP
What is soft? Slow? Long, or Full? Conventional instruction is full of ambiguous terms that mean different things to different people at different times. And they complain about TGM precise terminology- go figure.

Extensor action is tugging on the left arm- it stretches and straightens. It de-slacks. It by no means stiffens the arm. Whether you feel it as a pull of the arm or a push on the left hand, it is the straighten action that is important.

Is it soft? It isn’t a stiff board or stick. More like a pulled guitar string- soft but ready for business.
neil
I like that Mike -"soft, but ready for business"-my swing thought for Saturday!