Spine

Let us hear (read) some ideas about how SPINE POSITIONS at Address... Face On and Down the Line can influence a golf stroke. Include degree of tilt, bend, posture, etc..

IMO Hardy's so called 'one plane vs two plane' book is 'actually' not about plane at all, but a quite solid description of the differences between spine angle/tilt at address and the resulting swings/compensations they each require.

Originally Posted by lagster Let us hear (read) some ideas about how SPINE POSITIONS at Address... Face On and Down the Line can influence a golf stroke. Include degree of tilt, bend, posture, etc..

Lagster,

Your question appears to be a solicitation of opinions, so here is mine:

For posture relating to the spine, in golf and in life outside golf, it is in your best interest to learn to maintain what is called "neutral spine." This is crucial to protecting your lower back. In my recovery from back surgery, every physical therapist I've seen (including the golf-specialist PT I am currently seeing), has made this priority number 1.

Here is a link to some descriptions and visuals (see "Club behind the spine" and "Address Posture").

www.athletico.com/services/GolfExerciseTips.pdf

To ground a club properly while maintaining a neutral spine will require a significant forward tilt, As mentioned by EdZ, this is the hallmark of the Hardy* one-plane swing (BTW, Peter J's posture in the Golf Digest excerpt leaves a lot to be desired). The degree of bend will depend on your height, arm length etc. Basically, you want your hands to hang straight down from your shoulders such that your hands are under your chin. Hardy recommends little side bend.

You will need to have a strong core (back and abs) to maintain the neutral spine throughout the swing (the back will want to flex (i.e., "round") on the downswing. However, I think that everyone should have this level of strength if they want to have a happy back for life in general.

Lou


*I reference Hardy here to give proper citation for the information in the context of this post. I am not an advocate of his methods.

Yoda what do you think about this? More erect posture vs. more bent.

Say David Toms vs. Vijay.

Originally Posted by EdZ IMO Hardy's so called 'one plane vs two plane' book is 'actually' not about plane at all, but a quite solid description of the differences between spine angle/tilt at address and the resulting swings/compensations they each require.

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I agree... Mr. Hardy's book is not really dealing with shaft plane.

I believe he said Freddy Couples is actually a One Planer(by his definition), with a flying elbow. I believe he says someone like Davis Love would be a Two Planer.

He is looking a golf swing in a different way... than most have recently, it seems to me. Some of the information looks pretty good.

Originally Posted by lagster Let us hear (read) some ideas about how SPINE POSITIONS at Address... Face On and Down the Line can influence a golf stroke. Include degree of tilt, bend, posture, etc..

Here's something new I'm trying... at Address, I try to feel as if I am creating as much distance as possible between the Clubhead and my Swing Center (the stationary Head, or perhaps more accurately, the base of the Neck). This encourages two things for me: Extensor Action and a straight posture.

Build your stance around the right forearm and shaft to facilitate the Right Forearm Take-Away.
Build an A frame not a K frame.
The RFT puts control of the take-away in the hands and creates better than any shoulder take-away a truer geometric circle required for the swing and impact.


This is what Yoda taught our class. It works. When I set at address, I feel like I'm ready to put a dent that little pro-vee. I call it the stance of a warrior.

From face on build the "Tripod" that lynn talks about. THis would have the head basically between the feet at address. In fact, Mr. KElley says "exactly between the feet" if I remember correctly from Lynn. So from face on have the head between the feet. This will have the spine basically vertical to the ground from a face on view.

From down the line bend from the hips. Upper arms (biceps and tripceps) hanging straight down, butt of the club pointing to the belt line or belly button, a basic "L" between the spine and shaft of the club.

During the swing I feel it is necessary for the bottom of the spine to stay put and not work into the target line. The swinger's spine moves down the line and the hitter's spine moves across the line, however there should not be a severe movement of the lower spine into the target line.

Often overlooked is the role of the knees in the maintenance of the spine angle. If the knees gain flex in the downswing with the right knee firing toward the target line the lower spine will move in. So just as MR. Kelley says, maintain the flex in the knees through the golf swing, all you need is just enough flex for the right forearm to be on plane.

Those are my thoughts.

Originally Posted by loubert

Originally Posted by lagster Let us hear (read) some ideas about how SPINE POSITIONS at Address... Face On and Down the Line can influence a golf stroke. Include degree of tilt, bend, posture, etc..

Lagster,

Your question appears to be a solicitation of opinions, so here is mine:

For posture relating to the spine, in golf and in life outside golf, it is in your best interest to learn to maintain what is called "neutral spine." This is crucial to protecting your lower back. In my recovery from back surgery, every physical therapist I've seen (including the golf-specialist PT I am currently seeing), has made this priority number 1.

Here is a link to some descriptions and visuals (see "Club behind the spine" and "Address Posture").

www.athletico.com/services/GolfExerciseTips.pdf

To ground a club properly while maintaining a neutral spine will require a significant forward tilt, As mentioned by EdZ, this is the hallmark of the Hardy* one-plane swing (BTW, Peter J's posture in the Golf Digest excerpt leaves a lot to be desired). The degree of bend will depend on your height, arm length etc. Basically, you want your hands to hang straight down from your shoulders such that your hands are under your chin. Hardy recommends little side bend.

You will need to have a strong core (back and abs) to maintain the neutral spine throughout the swing (the back will want to flex (i.e., "round") on the downswing. However, I think that everyone should have this level of strength if they want to have a happy back for life in general.

Lou


*I reference Hardy here to give proper citation for the information in the context of this post. I am not an advocate of his methods.

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The NEUTRAL SPINE idea is interesting!! The stretches for golf look good also.

Mr. Hardy seems to indicate that the One Plane Swing(by his definition) is easier on the back and shoulders.

It seems to me, however, that if one is bent over more, and has more aggressive rotation of the hips and shoulders... this would be more strenuous for the back. I can see where the One Planer could be easier on the rotator cuffs, however, since the arms are not lifted much.

I've found that I'm pretty much OK if I just stick my arse out more. And the ladies love it.

Originally Posted by lagster Mr. Hardy seems to indicate that the One Plane Swing(by his definition) is easier on the back and shoulders.

It seems to me, however, that if one is bent over more, and has more aggressive rotation of the hips and shoulders... this would be more strenuous for the back.

You're right...in both cases!

The key is to think "easier" or "strenuous" on the back in two parts. One is the mechanical structure of the spine* itself and the other is the muscles of the back.**

The neutral spine requires your back and other core muscles to maintain this position. Bending over into golf address increases the difficulty of maintaining this posture. Then the forces generating by swinging the club will make it even harder to keep neutral. This is strenuous for the back muscles, but as with any strength training, becomes easier as the muscles are developed.

However, if you can maintain the posture, the spine structure is protected from going beyond its normal range-of-motion or load limits. This is where we really hurt our backs (herniate disks, muscle spasms, etc.). Thus it is easier on the back from this perspective.

On the other hand, a rounded back posture at address*** will feel easier on the back muscles, which are asked to do a lot less, but the load will be passed along to other places such as the lower back. Over time, the repetitive nature of golf becomes very strenuous for the spine structure.

Lou

*the bones, ligaments, joints, discs, etc.
**even better to think of all the muscles of the core (back, abs, etc.)
***this is spine flexion...spine extension (think reverse-c follow-through) is bad for the same reasons

Originally Posted by loubert
You're right...in both cases!

The key is to think "easier" or "strenuous" on the back in two parts. One is the mechanical structure of the spine* itself and the other is the muscles of the back.**

The neutral spine requires your back and other core muscles to maintain this position. Bending over into golf address increases the difficulty of maintaining this posture. Then the forces generating by swinging the club will make it even harder to keep neutral. This is strenuous for the back muscles, but as with any strength training, becomes easier as the muscles are developed.

However, if you can maintain the posture, the spine structure is protected from going beyond its normal range-of-motion or load limits. This is where we really hurt our backs (herniate disks, muscle spasms, etc.). Thus it is easier on the back from this perspective.

On the other hand, a rounded back posture at address*** will feel easier on the back muscles, which are asked to do a lot less, but the load will be passed along to other places such as the lower back. Over time, the repetitive nature of golf becomes very strenuous for the spine structure.

Lou

*the bones, ligaments, joints, discs, etc.
**even better to think of all the muscles of the core (back, abs, etc.)
***this is spine flexion...spine extension (think reverse-c follow-through) is bad for the same reasons

I think that I misunderstood the lack of effort found in the rounded posture as being completely relaxed. As a result, I tweaked my back. I've been working on maintaining a neutral spine the last week or so, as well as really keeping my chin up.

Originally Posted by loubert
You're right...in both cases!

The key is to think "easier" or "strenuous" on the back in two parts. One is the mechanical structure of the spine* itself and the other is the muscles of the back.**

The neutral spine requires your back and other core muscles to maintain this position. Bending over into golf address increases the difficulty of maintaining this posture. Then the forces generating by swinging the club will make it even harder to keep neutral. This is strenuous for the back muscles, but as with any strength training, becomes easier as the muscles are developed.

However, if you can maintain the posture, the spine structure is protected from going beyond its normal range-of-motion or load limits. This is where we really hurt our backs (herniate disks, muscle spasms, etc.). Thus it is easier on the back from this perspective.

On the other hand, a rounded back posture at address*** will feel easier on the back muscles, which are asked to do a lot less, but the load will be passed along to other places such as the lower back. Over time, the repetitive nature of golf becomes very strenuous for the spine structure.

Lou

*the bones, ligaments, joints, discs, etc.
**even better to think of all the muscles of the core (back, abs, etc.)
***this is spine flexion...spine extension (think reverse-c follow-through) is bad for the same reasons

I think that I misunderstood the lack of effort found in the rounded posture as being completely relaxed. As a result, I tweaked my back. I've been working on maintaining a neutral spine the last week or so, as well as really keeping my chin up.

So... are some of you saying that you believe the more bent over posture is ACTUALLY BETTER for the back as long as the SPINE ANGLE is kept throughout the STROKE?

It seems to me that the more Upright Stroke(with less bent over posture), that requires less rotation, would cause less shearing of the back or spine. Good Posture, of course with the Upright Stroke (Two Planer) is also important.

A very, strong, young person, of course, can do about what ever they want, for a while. Over time, if too much trauma has been placed on their back(Trevino etc.) the backs will start to hurt.

Maybe the Neutral Spine, and core strength is the Key?

Originally Posted by lagster So... are some of you saying that you believe the more bent over posture is ACTUALLY BETTER for the back as long as the SPINE ANGLE is kept throughout the STROKE?

I am not a medical professional of any kind. I am just a golfer that hurt his back. I am saying that the therapists that I've talked to indicate that a NEUTRAL SPINE is better than a ROUNDED BACK. In golf, maintaining a neutral spine position makes one look "more bent over" compared with the typical golfer.

Do a google search with: "rounded back" golf injury

Originally Posted by lagster It seems to me that the more Upright Stroke(with less bent over posture), that requires less rotation, would cause less shearing of the back or spine. Good Posture, of course with the Upright Stroke (Two Planer) is also important.

For a moment, let's decouple the degree of forward spine tilt from the concept of one- and two-plane swings. Instead, let's focus only on neutral spine. Use a mirror or video as a monitoring device. While keeping neutral spine, properly ground your club. How far did you have to bend over?

Now, bringing back the one/two plane comparison, does it look like a one or two plane setup? Next setup with a club in a two plane address and then look in the mirror. Is the back rounded? Have you maintained good posture?

Originally Posted by lagster Maybe the Neutral Spine, and core strength is the Key?

The whole biomechanical picture of the golf swing is complex. You need flexibility. It is really hard to maintain neutral spine if you have tight hamstrings. Hip flexor flexibility is also important in spinal movement. You need stability. This is where the core is so important. You need strength...and so on!

Lou

Some links that may be of interest:
http://www.yourgolffitnesscoach.com/...howPage/14280/
http://www.daxmoy-pts.co.uk/articles/golf.htm

After going to a PT about my rotator cuff/shoulder popping issue, the main thing we worked on was getting into a better "athletic" posture that didn't distrupt a proper "golf" posture.

Basically what Manzella has on his site for his setup article is pretty much spot on.

The only things he changed was:

-Shoulders BACK AND DOWN in their sockets....this is important. You want to feel like you're almost squeezing your pecs to get your arms to the ball. This helps with distributing the load of impact further across your body vs a few select spots (like my shoulder)
-Engage my abs and lower back just a hair more to "pre-load" the swing and impact.
-Keep the more chin up and eyes down look.

Thats it....

Originally Posted by 6bmike Build an A frame not a K frame.

seen this 2-3 times in the past week but must have missed the initial explanation...could someone expound?...thanks in advance!

-hcw

Originally Posted by hcw

Originally Posted by 6bmike Build an A frame not a K frame.

seen this 2-3 times in the past week but must have missed the initial explanation...could someone expound?...thanks in advance!

-hcw

An A frame will have far less axis tilt to the right with higher hands at mid-body. The mid hand position allows the shaft and right forearm to align nicely and facilitate the right forearm take-away. Head, spine, hands will all be between the legs. Solid as an A frame. Stuart Appleby has a nice A frame.

The K frame has lower hands and an excessive tilt to the right. Built for a big shoulder turn and widely used by long distance types and taught as address by many.

If the Magic is the Right Forearm then the Right Forearm Take-Away is the wand.

Originally Posted by lagster Let us hear (read) some ideas about how SPINE POSITIONS at Address... Face On and Down the Line can influence a golf stroke. Include degree of tilt, bend, posture, etc..

Nice question.

Forgive me if this has already been answered (to lazy to read all the posts).

Face on KEY!!!!!!!!!!!! Tripod!!

Tilt, bend or whatever one desires to call it. Depending on the club and if you strive to setup with the right forearm on plane at address, will effect the amount of bend at address. I will allow others to explain how this effected step by step. With that being said, note pics in book of plane and the hand locations.

What are the measuring devices in The Golfing Machine? First, there are none but always remember that Impact Fix gives clear guidance of where YOU need to be.

Later.

Randy

Originally Posted by loubert

Originally Posted by lagster So... are some of you saying that you believe the more bent over posture is ACTUALLY BETTER for the back as long as the SPINE ANGLE is kept throughout the STROKE?

I am not a medical professional of any kind. I am just a golfer that hurt his back. I am saying that the therapists that I've talked to indicate that a NEUTRAL SPINE is better than a ROUNDED BACK. In golf, maintaining a neutral spine position makes one look "more bent over" compared with the typical golfer.

Do a google search with: "rounded back" golf injury

Originally Posted by lagster It seems to me that the more Upright Stroke(with less bent over posture), that requires less rotation, would cause less shearing of the back or spine. Good Posture, of course with the Upright Stroke (Two Planer) is also important.

For a moment, let's decouple the degree of forward spine tilt from the concept of one- and two-plane swings. Instead, let's focus only on neutral spine. Use a mirror or video as a monitoring device. While keeping neutral spine, properly ground your club. How far did you have to bend over?

Now, bringing back the one/two plane comparison, does it look like a one or two plane setup? Next setup with a club in a two plane address and then look in the mirror. Is the back rounded? Have you maintained good posture?

Originally Posted by lagster Maybe the Neutral Spine, and core strength is the Key?

The whole biomechanical picture of the golf swing is complex. You need flexibility. It is really hard to maintain neutral spine if you have tight hamstrings. Hip flexor flexibility is also important in spinal movement. You need stability. This is where the core is so important. You need strength...and so on!

Lou

Some links that may be of interest:
http://www.yourgolffitnesscoach.com/...howPage/14280/
http://www.daxmoy-pts.co.uk/articles/golf.htm

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Good information!!

The tests on the first link look good.
Many golfers are probably trying to do things that their bodies will not, or do not want to do!!!

Originally Posted by lagster

Originally Posted by loubert Some links that may be of interest:
http://www.yourgolffitnesscoach.com/...howPage/14280/
http://www.daxmoy-pts.co.uk/articles/golf.htm

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Good information!!

Thanks!

Originally Posted by lagster The tests on the first link look good.
Many golfers are probably trying to do things that their bodies will not, or do not want to do!!!

Our bodies are very good at finding a way to do what we ask. Unfortunately, in achieving a strenuous move like the golf stroke, forces may be re-directed to structures that cannot sustain the load.

I would encourage anyone who has the financial means to schedule time with a golf-specific trainer. The cost is similar to lessons from a golf professional, and like a good golf pro, they will be able to create a plan that is appropriate for you.

The trainer I am seeing is a physical therapist and 3.7 index player. My visits with him have made a huge impact on my physical condition and golf stroke (and my understanding of both).

Lou
---> Not a medical or golf professional!

Originally Posted by loubert

Originally Posted by lagster

Originally Posted by loubert Some links that may be of interest:
http://www.yourgolffitnesscoach.com/...howPage/14280/
http://www.daxmoy-pts.co.uk/articles/golf.htm

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Good information!!

Thanks!

Originally Posted by lagster The tests on the first link look good.
Many golfers are probably trying to do things that their bodies will not, or do not want to do!!!

Our bodies are very good at finding a way to do what we ask. Unfortunately, in achieving a strenuous move like the golf stroke, forces may be re-directed to structures that cannot sustain the load.

I would encourage anyone who has the financial means to schedule time with a golf-specific trainer. The cost is similar to lessons from a golf professional, and like a good golf pro, they will be able to create a plan that is appropriate for you.

The trainer I am seeing is a physical therapist and 3.7 index player. My visits with him have made a huge impact on my physical condition and golf stroke (and my understanding of both).

Lou
---> Not a medical or golf professional!

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Has anyone tried the flexibility tests on the first link? These would be good for an instructor to know and possibly administer prior to starting with students.

I have, and I think they're good for letting you know where you need to improve your flexibility; you can go right to the source instead of stretching everything else and missing it.

What exercises do you do to help maintain a neutral spine throughout the golf stroke (crunches etc.)?