Down Swing / Club Face

How soon should the club face be looking at the ball during the down swing???.................

Originally Posted by SwingNorthtoSouth How soon should the club face be looking at the ball during the down swing???.................

I am not sure about what you're trying to ask.

The clubface is turned on the plane for a swinger, but not for a hitter. Clubface constantly closes like a paddlewheel for a hitter during the downswing. But for a swinger, clubface moves down plane until release, like a karete chop motion with left hand. When the face will square will depend on the release type you're using.

Originally Posted by tongzilla

Originally Posted by SwingNorthtoSouth How soon should the club face be looking at the ball during the down swing???.................

But for a swinger, clubface moves down plane until release, like a karete chop motion with left hand. When the face will square will depend on the release type you're using.

Zilla,

Could you expand on this a bit? RELEASE MONTIONS PER 4-D-0 refers to the Release of Accumulators #2 and #3. Two separate motions Wrist Motion and Hand Motion.

Let us assume since we are in the Swinging forum we are talking Sequenced Release. Per 2-P THE WRISTCOCK is a CLUBHEAD motion - not a CLUBFACE motion. It has nothing to do with Clubface alignment at impact - that is a function of the Hands, executing the Clubface motion - Accumulator #3 per 4-D-0. AND the Hitter concentrates on HAND motion and the Swinger concentrates on WRIST motion.

So the Swinger is concentrating on UNCOCKING and FULL LEVER EXTENSION, which brings us back to 2-P: So for maximum Power at any Clubhead Speed, the Ball must be struck before Full Extension. AND per 2-P Centrifugal Force ALONE Ucocks the Swinger's Wrists . . .

So now, back to the Karate Chop. Where are you aiming your Chop? And are you executing your chop with a soft flexible left wrist or are you holding the chop (Cocked Condition of the Wrist)?

I have been working on feeling as if my Left Wrist (#2) is Uncocking strongly downward whle the Hand is still turned to the face of the Plane. I trust the Downward motion to "run into" the rotation of the body. Then allow CF and the turning to actuate #3 and square the Clubface to the ball via the selected Hinge Motion.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

Originally Posted by tongzilla

Originally Posted by SwingNorthtoSouth How soon should the club face be looking at the ball during the down swing???.................

But for a swinger, clubface moves down plane until release, like a karete chop motion with left hand. When the face will square will depend on the release type you're using.

Per 2-P THE WRISTCOCK is a CLUBHEAD motion - not a CLUBFACE motion. So the Swinger is concentrating on UNCOCKING and FULL LEVER EXTENSION

This is true for a 10-2-B grip, however with a 10-2-D grip the wristcock is effectively BOTH clubHEAD and clubFACE control

Originally Posted by EdZ

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

Originally Posted by tongzilla

Originally Posted by SwingNorthtoSouth How soon should the club face be looking at the ball during the down swing???.................

But for a swinger, clubface moves down plane until release, like a karete chop motion with left hand. When the face will square will depend on the release type you're using.

Per 2-P THE WRISTCOCK is a CLUBHEAD motion - not a CLUBFACE motion. So the Swinger is concentrating on UNCOCKING and FULL LEVER EXTENSION

This is true for a 10-2-B grip, however with a 10-2-D grip the wristcock is effectively BOTH clubHEAD and clubFACE control

Good point! I wasn't gonna open that can of worms but . . .

Per 2-P THE WRISTCOCK - Only with a Turned Left Wrist, such as 10-2-D, can Uncocking be both Motions, that is , actually Throwing the Clubface at the Ball.

So how does this work? 10-2-D requires Paddlewheel Motion. Lose your Paddlewheel and lose the ball in the left woods right? How do you "throw the clubface at the ball with 10-2-D?"

Thanks!

B

Very nice point Ed. I was going to mention that but you beat me to the punch. Now for some thoughts on all of this.

First, the uncocking of the left wrist. I believe that unless you're making a concerted effort to "hang on" and fight CF, then that wrist will uncock on it's own. There's no need to force the motion. And it just has to uncock on the plane so I wouldn't worry about exactly where it occurs - as long as it occurs before the roll starts.

Second, this Hitting discussion and paddlewheeling. One can paddle, or one cannot paddle. The choice is made before the stroke when you are selecting your wrist action. Are you shooting for a True Hitting procedure or a paddlewheel Hitting procedure? Needless to say one is significantly more difficult than the other.

Very few people know what Hitting is. Even fewer understand it. Even fewer can perform it. Even fewer can tinker with it correctly. I've realized that when I thought I was Hitting I probably really wasn't. Too many little things separated my motion (in the video I posted) from a Hitting procedure. Little things like Assembly Point, Wrist Action, Lag Loading.

What you feel in your stroke may or may not be what is happening - we've all heard that. But what about when you "feel" right arm thrust from a backstroke position past shoulder height? Are you Hitting then? Are you Drive Loading? Or Drag Loading? And Right Arm Swinging when you thought you were Hitting? Questions, questions.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Good point! I wasn't gonna open that can of worms but . . .

Per 2-P THE WRISTCOCK - Only with a Turned Left Wrist, such as 10-2-D, can Uncocking be both Motions, that is , actually Throwing the Clubface at the Ball.

So how does this work? 10-2-D requires Paddlewheel Motion. Lose your Paddlewheel and lose the ball in the left woods right? How do you "throw the clubface at the ball with 10-2-D?"

Thanks!

B

Personally, I like to use the shoulder turn throw with 10-2-D (10-20-C). I find this is a great way to play a power fade given my flatter plane angle.

The 'hand throw' can be quite useful IF you have your wedges set, and keep them set - I might rephrase it for that particular combination as a 'wedge throw'. You can really get a sense of the plane with this combination because the left wrist cock and delivery path is right up and down the plane, no manipulation or shift. Morgan Pressel is a great example of the 10-2-D grip and swing IMO. Clubface control can be tricky if 'center' moves however, an angled hinge works best here (hit or swing). Best to opt for a fade.

I'd love to hear more from Lynn on grip types vs release trigger combinations.

Edz & Matt,

Good posts!

Matt . . . Question: Could you further distinguish "True Hitting" vs. "Paddlewheel Hitting?" When I was at the Swamp, I would HIT a left snipe and Dr. Collards would scold, "YOU LOST YOUR PADDLEWHEEL!!!" When Hitting I fight Loading for Swinging and thus fight the Horizontal Hinge on the thru-stroke. Could you please help with the differences in Paddlewheel Hitting vs. True Hitting? I'm interested.

Also, I was under the impression due to many years of misinformation that Lag was keeping the Left Wrist Cocked, holding it tight. I have really had to fight myself to "Let" CF Uncock the wrist. I have been hitting chips just focusing on fully uncocking #2 and letting #3 take care of itself.

Edz,

Thanks man! Could you give me a little more on the mechanics of the Hand throw and Shoulder throw? I don't have the book at work.

Thanks!

B