Frozen Moe - Stroke Sequence

Sequences of the pictures .....

Great stuff Mathew. I love watching how Moe's hands move. Very 'on plane' the way I see it. A great horizontal hinge too.

Kinda like this Yoda

As all can see, Moe Bobs a bit through Impact (due to more Knee flex than at Address). He knew where he was going though, so all is forgiven. However, also note that there has been no Sway.

Yoda, could you go into more about how to set one's head correctly at fix before going to adjusted address so that their is no need for bobbing on the downstroke ...

Thanks

This is great. I always thought sway referred to the hips. Never occured to me that sway referred to the head/feet tripod .

Moe has a lot of hip slide on the downswing, but maintains the tripod.

Originally Posted by Noryang This is great. I always thought sway referred to the hips. Never occured to me that sway referred to the head/feet tripod .

Moe has a lot of hip slide on the downswing, but maintains the tripod.

Reference the chair in the back ground. He almost covers it with his left hip. His swing went to END back then. Hey Hula Hula! His more recent swings end at TOP. Interesting that he is a Swinger using 10-16-B Knee action Left Anchor. Could this have something to do with the bobbing or is this a symptom rather than a cause?

Single-shift BTW. Inside to elbow-plane, up to TSP, down TSP to impact. Shift is from elbow to TSP in backswing.

birdie_man I must be getting tired, how can you tell he is using the TSP? Did you learn that from a different sequence, taken from a better angle? I've drawn the TSP onto this one, with this camera angle, and Moe's shaft is nowhere near the TSP on the way down. Except for maybe two frames, his shaft never even looks onplane to me, although the camera angle might be to blame.

Mathew could we see Moe's first tripod drawn over him at impact, just to see how much his head and ankle have moved? Thanks for the sequence Get rid of the Bob and add a right foot anchor and you would have a tripod that didn't change in size like Moe's has, right?

Originally Posted by nevermind birdie_man Except for maybe two frames, his shaft never even looks onplane to me, although the camera angle might be to blame.

Could this be due to how far away he stands from the ball?

sure. If the definition of being onplane changes the flatter the plane angle gets

Double shift.

I agree Matt - definately a double shift....

Originally Posted by nevermind birdie_man I must be getting tired, how can you tell he is using the TSP? Did you learn that from a different sequence, taken from a better angle? I've drawn the TSP onto this one, with this camera angle, and Moe's shaft is nowhere near the TSP on the way down. Except for maybe two frames, his shaft never even looks onplane to me, although the camera angle might be to blame.

Mathew could we see Moe's first tripod drawn over him at impact, just to see how much his head and ankle have moved? Thanks for the sequence Get rid of the Bob and add a right foot anchor and you would have a tripod that didn't change in size like Moe's has, right?

Oops...it must be me who is getting tired.

I drew no lines...only looked at it and eyeballed it. Thanks for the correction...I wouldn't want to be "preaching anything but the truth."

-Paul

Originally Posted by Yoda Mathew, I'd appreciate it if you would draw some Triangles (on the Front View sequence) to illustrate the Tripod Concept at Address, Top, Impact and Follow-Through.

Technically, isn't that a bipod? A tripod would have three legs, ala the aliens from War of the Worlds.

Originally Posted by Noryang

Originally Posted by Yoda Mathew, I'd appreciate it if you would draw some Triangles (on the Front View sequence) to illustrate the Tripod Concept at Address, Top, Impact and Follow-Through.

Technically, isn't that a bipod? A tripod would have three legs, ala the aliens from War of the Worlds.

Who's to say Mo didn't have a 3rd leg?

Do you want to know what is really funny is that Jack Kuykendall (early founder of right way golf which later turned out to be natural golf) patented, (yes patented) putting "the club in the lifeline" and called it his greatest discovery despite this concept being invented well before him. I do not know whether Homer was the first to write it, but he sure as anything wrote it in TGM. The SA'ers (which really means they try to play with an online right forearm over there, just a pity they dont know what to do with it) in their forum and think this is theirs, a little piece of their turf which is solely theirs and that we are trying to muster into, but nothing but the facts have to come out due to the fact there is a printing date and Homer Kelley wrote it before all these incomplete and faulty methods came about and Moe Norman exemplified Homers onplane right forearm perfectly.

Per 10-2-0 - "Usually the only real difference between the Right and Left Hand Grip is that the clubshaft lies under the heel of the Left Hand but it (or the left thumb) lies in the cup of the Right Hand."

Per 10-9-A - " The standard Address position condition of the Wrists - Left) Bend/Level/Vertical, Right Flat/Level/Vertical"

So we're gripping the club in the cup of the right hand in a level condition which it stays in the entire stroke (per flying wedges). "Level" per 4-B-1 is where the wrist-bone and the edge of the hand forms a straight line just for anyone which is unsure..... Not to mention we place the right arm on the plane - hence an onplane right forearm

Now the copyright date on my book has 1982 (and there were 5 editions before this dating back to 1969 which I don't have so probably earlier) on it and since that was the year I was born its very easy for me to know thats 23 years ago and long before these silly SA methods came to be.

http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/mechanics.htm

Kuykendall's description of Moe sequence. Includes stills and animation.

Originally Posted by bbftx http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/mechanics.htm

Kuykendall's description of Moe sequence. Includes stills and animation.

Jack Kuykendall is a MORON !

Usually I would just say I don't agree with someone and leave it at that but he describes everything else (including TGM yet steals from it - the onplane right forearm and calls it his discovery) with a disgusting tone so I thought I would return and be to him what he's like to others.

I have no sympathy for a man that steals, discredits and basically acts with indignity (which is very prevalent with the tone on his website). He also doesn't know what he is talking about...his analysis is very imprecise also....

Hes even got a bit on his website "why the majority of TGM is incorrect" ... TGM is accurate - his 'soundbite' purile marketing ploys of stupid mechanics are not....

I personally would like to see this reply here and the one I quoted deleted ... but if they have to stay then I want to say my piece....

Mathew

I have a video clip that I shot of Jack when I stumbled on him at a practice range. He demonstrated his move for me. It is really too outrageous to post. Let's leave Jack to the folks that need him most, those with serious disabilities (I'm not kidding), and get back to the subject at hand.

Thanks,

Bagger

Per 10-2-0 - "Usually the only real difference between the Right and Left Hand Grip is that the clubshaft lies under the heel of the Left Hand but it (or the left thumb) lies in the cup of the Right Hand."

I really like that Matt...even thought I don't do it in my own stroke right now lol...

If you have the grip in the fingers of your right hand, all it takes is for you to move your hand so the grip runs through the bottom part of your palm (pretty much where the underside of your wrist meets your hand- envision your hand is cut off...). Put it in between the Thumb Pad and Heel Pad...right in the "butt cheeks" of your hand lol.

If I swung more in the way of "right wrist bends straight back"/"clap your hands" (err clap your extended-out left hand with your right hand- fanning motion)...then it would be bang on.

Felt great last night....I have a feeling me not having known this before is one part of the reason why I moved away from that swing style.

Mathew,
Sorry to get you worked up. I just thought some people would like to read Kuykendall's take on Moe's swing since you mentioned Kuykendall and that's where the original still pics came from. I agree he's overly abrasive elsewhere on his site.

Personally, I don't like Kuykendall's "tear down everyone else" style either, and I certainly don't employ his swing methods. But there are a few interesting Moe stories on his site that some folks might like to read.

I don't know how he got his patent approved as a "new invention." It's basically for both a particular clubhead( size and geometry) and more interestingly, a swing method --- more than just for gripping the club in line with the trail forearm. It's the entire, unique combination of swing mechanics that he was able to finagle a patent on, not just a single element like the forearm-club alignment (which you correctly point out is mentioned prior and elsewhere).

Originally Posted by birdie_man

Per 10-2-0 - "Usually the only real difference between the Right and Left Hand Grip is that the clubshaft lies under the heel of the Left Hand but it (or the left thumb) lies in the cup of the Right Hand."

I really like that Matt...even thought I don't do it in my own stroke right now lol...

If you have the grip in the fingers of your right hand, all it takes is for you to move your hand so the grip runs through the bottom part of your palm (pretty much where the underside of your wrist meets your hand- envision your hand is cut off...). Put it in between the Thumb Pad and Heel Pad...right in the "butt cheeks" of your hand lol.

If I swung more in the way of "right wrist bends straight back"/"clap your hands" (err clap your extended-out left hand with your right hand- fanning motion)...then it would be bang on.

Felt great last night....I have a feeling me not having known this before is one part of the reason why I moved away from that swing style.

I find that the extensor action pretty much pulls the primary lever assembly inline and (although sometimes it changes to pp1) generally I prefer to do it with pp3. I like to feel with pp3 I stretch it out and just tracing the plane line with it. I also allow the extensor action to preform the start-up swivel for me - the extensor action takeaway. This is pretty much my backstroke in a nutshell at this current time.....

I find the precision in being able to stretch and trace that plane line is crutial to me.... which is only possible with an onplane right forearm... With this the trace and stretch is always towards the plane line....

Have you ever tried this and whats your thoughts?

Originally Posted by bbftx Mathew,
Sorry to get you worked up. I just thought some people would like to read Kuykendall's take on Moe's swing since you mentioned Kuykendall and that's where the original still pics came from. I agree he's overly abrasive elsewhere on his site.

Personally, I don't like Kuykendall's "tear down everyone else" style either, and I certainly don't employ his swing methods. But there are a few interesting Moe stories on his site that some folks might like to read.

I don't know how he got his patent approved as a "new invention." It's basically for both a particular clubhead( size and geometry) and more interestingly, a swing method --- more than just for gripping the club in line with the trail forearm. It's the entire, unique combination of swing mechanics that he was able to finagle a patent on, not just a single element like the forearm-club alignment (which you correctly point out is mentioned prior and elsewhere).

Its ok dude all is good - I have no problem with you at all

Originally Posted by Mathew
I find that the extensor action pretty much pulls the primary lever assembly inline and (although sometimes it changes to pp1) generally I prefer to do it with pp3. I like to feel with pp3 I stretch it out and just tracing the plane line with it. I also allow the extensor action to preform the start-up swivel for me - the extensor action takeaway. This is pretty much my backstroke in a nutshell at this current time.....

I find the precision in being able to stretch and trace that plane line is crutial to me.... which is only possible with an onplane right forearm... With this the trace and stretch is always towards the plane line....

Have you ever tried this and whats your thoughts?

Mathew,

Good post! Do you use this procedure with Hitting or Swinging? or both?

Thanks!

B

.....Jack does not swing like he says he swings. And he does not swing like his video clip shows on his website for "Power Lever" golf.

Bagger and I met him on my range a few years ago and he has video of the affair. I actually went to Jack's seminar that night at our club just to see what his philosophy was. He then went out on the range and hit a ton of shots off his knees, etc.

A very interesting fellow....

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

Originally Posted by Mathew
I find that the extensor action pretty much pulls the primary lever assembly inline and (although sometimes it changes to pp1) generally I prefer to do it with pp3. I like to feel with pp3 I stretch it out and just tracing the plane line with it. I also allow the extensor action to preform the start-up swivel for me - the extensor action takeaway. This is pretty much my backstroke in a nutshell at this current time.....

I find the precision in being able to stretch and trace that plane line is crutial to me.... which is only possible with an onplane right forearm... With this the trace and stretch is always towards the plane line....

Have you ever tried this and whats your thoughts?

Mathew,

Good post! Do you use this procedure with Hitting or Swinging? or both?

Thanks!

B

Sorry I forgot to put it in. My pattern is primarily swinging. If I am hitting I try to feel extensor action with pp1 which tends (for me) to omit the start-up swivel of the swinger. The swinger swings the club back and the hitter carries it.....

Originally Posted by Trig .....Jack does not swing like he says he swings. And he does not swing like his video clip shows on his website for "Power Lever" golf.

Bagger and I met him on my range a few years ago and he has video of the affair. I actually went to Jack's seminar that night at our club just to see what his philosophy was. He then went out on the range and hit a ton of shots off his knees, etc.

A very interesting fellow....

So what does his stroke look like now ???

Its really great that I got the status of "somebody" for 5hrs work with my restored gif animation

Originally Posted by Mathew I find that the extensor action pretty much pulls the primary lever assembly inline and (although sometimes it changes to pp1) generally I prefer to do it with pp3. I like to feel with pp3 I stretch it out and just tracing the plane line with it. I also allow the extensor action to preform the start-up swivel for me - the extensor action takeaway. This is pretty much my backstroke in a nutshell at this current time.....

I find the precision in being able to stretch and trace that plane line is crutial to me.... which is only possible with an onplane right forearm... With this the trace and stretch is always towards the plane line....

Have you ever tried this and whats your thoughts?

Have recently moved away from a STT (again!- I started w/ one then used RFT then back to STT...now back to RFT again- I think for good) over the past couple weeks.

I find that my precision, and plane, and crispness of contact, and adjustability of aiming point is much better when I take it away with my hands....and I'm certainly don't think I'm losing anything by not using a STT.

That much increased ability to adjust my aiming point has been crucial for me with the crispness of my short irons- controlling the "pinch" of the ball, and the trajectory.

I can control how much I hit down and actively trace a straight plane line with the clubshaft....just extend those hands out in the right direction...

So ya, the difference has really been with how I can alter my impact alignments...which has been HUGE with my short irons like I said. Driving was always pretty good even with STT...but now it's even better- and I CAN bring it down if I like. Before it seemed like I was limited to one high trajectory.

I don't worry bout keeping the connection with my left pec./left arm anymore...taking it away with my hands pulls this apart slightly (rather than me keeping "connected" and turning th whole unit).

I've always been following/emulating Hogan so I has reservations about not doing this. Hogan said he wanted to feel like he could pinch a razorblade in there...I dunno though...maybe for his driver. It doesn't work so great for me with short irons- when I REALLY have to hit down and get my hands to a forward aiming point. Maybe he knows something I don't...I dunno tho- don't really care right now.

Extending my hands out and tracing the plane I want feels great. Adjusting my aiming point/the amount I hit down feels great. Smokin' my driver and still being able hit crisp, finesse short irons feels great. Maybe I can really groove something in now...maybe. :P

-Paul

Originally Posted by Trig .....Jack does not swing like he says he swings. And he does not swing like his video clip shows on his website for "Power Lever" golf.

Bagger and I met him on my range a few years ago and he has video of the affair. I actually went to Jack's seminar that night at our club just to see what his philosophy was. He then went out on the range and hit a ton of shots off his knees, etc.

A very interesting fellow....

Jack and I exchanged a series of emails last year. I asked for clarification to his remarks he wrote about “Homer's Science” and TGM in general. We were both polite and professional in our responses. After a few exchanges he challenged me to disprove any of his remarks. He suffers from a life long breakdown of the left wrist and claims the clubface control is impossible. He has no idea how the hands work.
Civility quickly vanished on his part as I got closer to the truth than he thought possible. He turned to personal attacks and name calling on me and Homer/TGM book in general.
He still claims that no one can keep a flat left wrist into impact which is why he “INVENTED” the power lever system which just replaces the cocked flat left wrist with a folding left elbow. Really !!!

What really gave me the giggles was when I noticed he used on his web site illustrations and direct quotes from a high school general physics book- the same one I had on my shelf that I got from a school district that replaced the book with a better one. Deep, huh?

Ahahahaha...that's garbage. Don't know who this guy is but he's hilarious.

Has he not seen pictures of a flat left wrist at impact??? Pictures!

What a bum.

Anyone can do a flat left wrist including me



It is not difficult...

Originally Posted by Mathew

Originally Posted by Trig .....Jack does not swing like he says he swings. And he does not swing like his video clip shows on his website for "Power Lever" golf.

Bagger and I met him on my range a few years ago and he has video of the affair. I actually went to Jack's seminar that night at our club just to see what his philosophy was. He then went out on the range and hit a ton of shots off his knees, etc.

A very interesting fellow....

So what does his stroke look like now ???

Its really great that I got the status of "somebody" for 5hrs work with my restored gif animation

Maybe we can pursuade Bagger to post the clip of Jack's swing. It's been a couple of years since this all happened, but I remember looking at Bagger's video at the time and thinking that Jack's swing was nothing like he described it, especially at the top. Aside from a super-inside take-away at the start, I don't remember the swing looking anything like "Power-levor" golf - which he says he discovered in 1997.

When Jack did his seminar that night, he spent 90% of the time talking about how he got screwed and ripped off by the Natural Golf people. WHATEVER! I don't think he got any "converts" that night, let's just leave it at that.

Uhggg...

I prefer to share more enlightened material, but since you asked.

Here you go...

Enjoy!

Bagger

I can't seem to be able to play the video - is this only me ?

I tried opening it with editor and said it found no frames......

I could not open it either, it appeared to be a quicktime file.