Turned Shoulder Plane/Zero Shift

I'm beginning to love this TGM stuff...

After our Sunday round a friend who has a lot of up-close & personal experience with tour players' swings made a few observations about the difference between the pros and us hacks. Being the golf nerd I am, one thing led to another... After I went through Redgoat's site and searched through the forum on this post's subject, I have a question. Do any of you guys use a zero shift from the TSP? If so, what do you feel on the downstroke? Do you have any kind of swing thoughts or images?

I used to do something similar, but I was told that I was too steep on the way down (and I probably was). But as long as a player adheres to the imperatives, it seems like a zero shift would be a very simple, repeatable method for getting to impact.

Sorry if I screwed up any terminology, if so, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say. Anyway, I appreciate any insights. Thanks.

"Lift, drop, then rotate." (Brian Manzella)

David Toms and Ernie Els swing in the TSP.

Brian has a video called "Never Hook Again" that pretty much describes this pattern. In essence, you are take the club up the plane (right forearm pickup and the "lift" part) until you reach the end. Then you are letting the club "drop" striaght down. The trick comes when you "catch the drop" with your pivot and just pivot into the ball.

Hope that helps

I can't recalling see any clip of a tour pro with 'zero shift', now that I said this watch the next 6 post reference vid clips of pro's doing this.

There were some that were close, but I can't even recall them.

Helps a lot, thanks Jim. "Catch the drop with your pivot" answers what would have been my follow-up question.

Martee, I understand what you're saying, I found the Els/zero shift debate during my searches on Lynn's forum. Like Jim referred to, I meant the Els and Toms-type downswings (pretty much straight down) from the TSP. I'm certainly not qualified to debate whether they're pure zero-shifts, but at least they seem pretty close. Thanks!

why would there be a "drop" in a zero shift swing?

I am also yet to see anyone zero shift on the TSP. Would be great if one of the masters would demonstrate and post the vid for us.

1) I never said anyone had a zero shift stroke

2) He wanted the "feel" of the downstroke in the TSP which is what i gave him

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As the club is coming down the turned shoulder plane from the top the "feel" is that you are letting the club drop and catching that "drop" with your pivot and putting it on the ball.

Originally Posted by KAOS Do any of you guys use a zero shift from the TSP? If so, what do you feel on the downstroke?

Jim, I wasn't trying to attack you. I'm just very curious now. I could be wrong, but my understanding of zero shift is that the entire shaft is on the selected plane angle at all times when not parallel. That would mean that the hands are also on that plane. So you see, your feeling of a drop has caused me to doubt my understanding.

It's great that you have translated mechanics into feel, I hope one day I can say the same for myself. Could you describe for me what it is that produces your feeling of a drop. thanks

If there is any visuals out there showing someone down the line at impact or impact fix, with the shaft on their TSP and an onplane right forearm, I would very very much like to see it.

sorry for the threadjack KAOS

I'm not TGM A.I. but as my signature says i did stay at a holiday inn .

I don't think anyone does a complete zero shift swing because even those who come close like David, Ernie, even Freddie to an extent start on the hand only plane and then shift to the turned shoulder plane somewhere in the backswing.

I can't take the credit for my "mechanics translated into feel" because Brian is the one who taught me this "feel." I am just reiterating it .

The "feel" for me that allows that club to "drop" is a my hips sliding towards the target and beginning to turn. This allows the club to "drop" back down the plane.

Hopefully that helps

Originally Posted by nevermind
If there is any visuals out there showing someone down the line at impact or impact fix, with the shaft on their TSP and an onplane right forearm, I would very very much like to see it.

The Zero Shift Sequence is actually in the book. However, it's not put together on the same page.

If you want to see the model for a Zero Shift Stroke (on the Turned Shoulder Plane), look at:

1) Address: 10-6-B- #1
2) The Top: 10-6-B- #2
3) Follow Through: 10-13-D #3

tongzilla, don't have my book at the moment, so I'll have to go by memory. I didn't take much from the TSP pics. To my eye the model was standing more upright than anyone would/should, the result being that the shoulder turn was very flat. Those pics left me with lingering doubts as to the practicality of a zero shift on the TSP. However, I'm just a newbie and am always up for some enlightenment.

jim, given that I've probably never performed a zero shift on the TSP () I'll defer to Manzella on this one. Guess I'm just used to people with plane shifts describing the feeling of a drop, I didn't expect it when zero shifting. I suppose that’s why mechanics come before feel. One person may feel something that they would describe as a drop when zero shifting and another only when shifting.

Originally Posted by nevermind Those pics left me with lingering doubts as to the practicality of a zero shift on the TSP.

Due to personal preference, natural inclination or the pressure of conditions it is not always possible or advisable to adhere to a single Inclined Plane classification throughout the entire Stroke.

To whom it may concern,

In Ted Forts swing sequence posted in this section of the site.

Is he using a zero shift "hitting" stroke on the turned shoulder plane??

or

Is he shifting from the elbow plane to the turned shoulder plane??

Also...
Swinging on TSP with zero shift appears steep when looking at pics 10-6-B #1 adn 10-6-b#2....Just thought i'd note that.

Sorting through the Duffer's Bible!

B-Ray

Originally Posted by Yoda
Did you mean 10-13-D #3?

Also, would you consider the three photos -- 10-13-D #1/#2/#3 -- a complete model for the Zero Shift on one page?

Oh dear, I meant 10-13-D #3 rather than 10-14-D #3 (which doesn't even exist!).

And yes, I would say 10-13-D #1/#2/#3 is just as good a model for the Zero Shift as the references I gave earlier. Which means contrary to what I said, you can find them on the same page.

Sorry about starting this food fight. It certainly wasn't my intention. I got the answers I was looking for, although I should've worded my original question more clearly. I just wanted to confirm that there are other viable methods of getting the club from the top of the swing down to impact other than a return to the elbow plane (which many instructors state is THE way). Also wanted to make sure I wasn't seeing the wrong thing in Els's and Toms' downswings.

The photos in 10-13-D are Toms-like, no?

Originally Posted by Yoda You're doin' great, Tongzilla, making us think and learning a ton in the process. Thank you for all your wonderful contributions. Keep'em comin'!

Tong is becoming a sparkplug in this machine.