Average Joe

How good can Average Joe be? Let's assume enough physical talent to play a high school sport. Decent eye hand coordination . . .

We Drinkers of the Koolaid are armed with the absolute BEST information in golf - G.O.L.F. What can we do with this information?

The average handicap is stagnant at best. Let's say that the LBG/TGM Revolution's momentum continues to swell. How good can Joe Average be let us assume 2 hours of practice time, 1 18 hole round, and 1 9 hole escape per week.

Hogan said that the "average" golfer should be a 70's shooter. What do we say?

Can we develop a "scoring" template?

Any ideas?

B

Originally Posted by Yoda Flat Left Wrist, anyone?

Boy do I agree.
Assuming you are lined up to your target and you know your distances.

What is the scoring value of hitting the fairway?
What is the scoring value of hitting greens?
What is the scoring value of chipping, pitching and bunker play within Birdie radius of the pin?
What is the scoring value of an on-line putt?

My opinion, that flat left wrist is the Master Essential!

How difficult is it on every shot?
Witness the need for corrective Golf Instruction and training aids worldwide.

The Momentus, Tic Tac Wrist, Impact Bag, Medicus, Swingsetter, etc. All of them can be measured as effective or ineffective by their ability to correct a bent left wrist.

Put another way, it is difficult to keep a flat left wrist off plane and/or without lag pressure.

Bagger

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance That flat left wrist is the Master Essential!

How difficult is it on every shot?
Witness the need for corrective Golf Instruction and training aids worldwide.

The Momentus, Tic Tac Wrist, Impact Bag, Medicus, Swingsetter, etc. All of them can be measured as effective or ineffective by their ability to correct a bent left wrist.

Bagger

Why is it then all of these instructors and training aids rarely even mention the Flat Left Wrist?

"Makes you wanna go, hmmmmm...."

Originally Posted by Trig Why is it then all of these instructors and training aids rarely even mention the Flat Left Wrist?

"Makes you wanna go, hmmmmm...."

Guess I should have mentioned, Golf Instruction can be measured as effective or ineffective by the same.

Thanks bud. We need to get out and play sometime! Like...let's set it up!

I know you are waiting on me...

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance I know you are waiting on me...

I'm sorry....who ARE you?

Originally Posted by Yoda Impossible, actually.

This is great, Bagger. Really great. Thanks!

Is it because the Left Wrist can only become Flat and remain Flat because of the Right Wrist Bend? It doesn't Flatten on its own.
Little Independence in the Flying Wedges, I guess.

How good can Joe Average get and how much time will it take?

From 25,000 hours on the tee:

Getting to make a better swing and look like a golfer - 15min. to 2hours

Breaking 100 regularly (if you never have) - less than one year

Break 90 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 3 years

Break 80 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 5 years

Assuming an average condition man 35-55, five lessons a year, one bucket a week in season, 20+ rounds per season.

And a good FITTED set of clubs.

Originally Posted by brianmanzella How good can Joe Average get and how much time will it take?

From 25,000 hours on the tee:

Getting to make a better swing and look like a golfer - 15min. to 2hours

Breaking 100 regularly (if you never have) - less than one year

Break 90 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 3 years

Break 80 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 5 years

Assuming an average condition man 35-55, five lessons a year, one bucket a week in season, 20+ rounds per season.

And a good FIITED set of clubs.

Brian,

How about a 5 handicap trying to get to scratch?

Originally Posted by Yoda I don't know what the rest of we will say.

But I do know what Homer Kelley said.

And he said:

"If you can keep your Left Wrist Flat through Impact, you will break 80 tomorrow."

In fact, that is exactly what he did in 1941. After only five months of golf, he shot a 77 on a championship course. His book -- The Golfing Machine® -- was born because he could not explain how he did it. Nor could he find anyone else who could. And because he didn't know, he immediately reverted to his old, high-handicap form. The "sweeping" Feel he had that day soon became a distant memory.

Sixteen years later, he discovered the Flat Left Wrist. Only then did he remember what the pro had told him:

"Semi-lock your left wrist through impact."

That is what Homer had done those many years before.

And a 77 is what he got.

Flat Left Wrist, anyone?

Originally Posted by brianmanzella How good can Joe Average get and how much time will it take?

From 25,000 hours on the tee:

Getting to make a better swing and look like a golfer - 15min. to 2hours

Breaking 100 regularly (if you never have) - less than one year

Break 90 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 3 years

Break 80 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 5 years

Assuming an average condition man 35-55, five lessons a year, one bucket a week in season, 20+ rounds per season.

And a good FITTED set of clubs.

Yoda and Brian!

Now this precisely the kind of OPTIMISM I am looking for! On other forums when this question is alluded to some teachers are saying "Well students are A.D.D. they'll never get it." It's frustrating to hear this kind of poor mouthing. I mean come on! We are armed with THE BEST information period bar none in golf!

I'm glad that our two FEARLESS LEADERS brimming with confidence are also FEARLESS BELIEVERS in what they teach! Good to see that the brass is willing to EAT THEIR OWN DAWG FOOD!!!

I'm in total agreement that Average Joe can be turned into the Swan! Most are out hear trying to break their glass ceiling 90, 80 or 70. At the end of the day you gotta write down a number. Glad that you have enough belief in your info, ability to teach and ultimately BELIEF IN YOUR STUDENT. Cause if the teacher don't believe, how can the student?

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Originally Posted by Yoda Good idea, Colonel,

What would you like to see in the TGM template for Game improvement?

From my perspective, most Average Joes (like me) have a limited amount of time. G.O.L.F. competes with the boss, the nag, and the brats. Even though I'm the never going to be the posterboy for organization, I think we need to give Joe a STRUCTURE to operate in rather than just pounding balls for an hour.

I think the first step would be to have some sort of Strength and Weakness Analysis. The Analysis could be measured on BOTH Shot Making (including chipping/pitching/putting) AND the Integrity of One's Critical Alignments. So we get Playing and the Alignment Baselines. From there figure out where to focus the limited amount of practice time.

Then break it down into Full Shots, Pitch, Chip and Putt. Maybe come up with tests to track your progress.

So maybe if you can't hit X number of Pitch Shots in a 6 foot circle then you work on the following Y.

Or maybe if you can't hit chip shots without bending your Left Wrist you do X (dowel work/impact bag/mop dragging) etc.

I would LOVE to hear others thoughts on this . . .

Thanks!

Bucket

Two examples of what can happen:

Worst golfer I ever taught, A.D.

He could not have possibly broke 113 on a 113 slope course (national mean).

He took 47 lessons from October 1990 to April 1991.

On a par 70 course, he shot 89, putting poorly.


A tennis pro came to me. Brian can you get me to break 80 in 4 months. His lowest score in only about 10 total rounds ever was 98.

He took 4 lessons a wek for 4 months and practiced a LOT.

He had 5 tries to break 80 to win his bet with a pal.

On a tough par-72, 7000 yds., he shot 76 in the third round.


It CAN be done.

Originally Posted by brianmanzella How good can Joe Average get and how much time will it take?

From 25,000 hours on the tee:


Break 80 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 5 years

Assuming an average condition man 35-55, five lessons a year, one bucket a week in season, 20+ rounds per season.

And a good FITTED set of clubs.

For most this is the HOLY GRAIL! What is the Manzella Process on this 5 Year Plan? Or is that Double Top Secret?

If you can produce a Book/DVD's on the Manzella Process to get people there in 5 years, you will be the richest man in golf. We can talk Bent Plane Lines and Pressure Points all day long, but at the end of the day . . . this is what people WANT!

Two examples of what can happen:

Worst golfer I ever taught, A.D.

He could not have possibly broke 113 on a 113 slope course (national mean).

He took 47 lessons from October 1990 to April 1991.

On a par 70 course, he shot 89, putting poorly.


A tennis pro came to me. Brian can you get me to break 80 in 4 months?

His lowest score in only about 10 total rounds ever was 98.

He took 4 lessons a week for 4 months and practiced a LOT.

He had 5 tries to break 80 to win his bet with a pal.

On a tough par-72, 7000 yds., he shot 76 in the third round.


It CAN be done.

Originally Posted by brianmanzella Two examples of what can happen:

A tennis pro came to me. Brian can you get me to break 80 in 4 months?

His lowest score in only about 10 total rounds ever was 98.

He took 4 lessons a week for 4 months and practiced a LOT.

He had 5 tries to break 80 to win his bet with a pal.

On a tough par-72, 7000 yds., he shot 76 in the third round.


It CAN be done.

Sweet! What was the recipe for success? 76 on 7000 yarder is nothing to sneeze at for anybody not on TV on Sunday.

Details . . . Need Details . . .

Originally Posted by Trig Brian,

How about a 5 handicap trying to get to scratch?

short game, short game, short game....

visualize every shot and don't hit it until you have 'seen' it go in. Watch the image in 'real time'.

Another point I should have made:

Both of these occured in 1991.

I teach 45,678 times better now than then.


More recent....13 year old came to me in September. He had never broke 90 in a real tournament.

Didn't own a driver, played with a junk set of ladies clubs.

Couldn't hit a good chip shot.

7 months later, shot 73 in tournaments—twice.


As far as any details go.....hmmm......I might have to do a video

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket How good can Average Joe be? Let's assume enough physical talent to play a high school sport. Decent eye hand coordination . . .

We Drinkers of the Koolaid are armed with the absolute BEST information in golf - G.O.L.F. What can we do with this information?

The average handicap is stagnant at best. Let's say that the LBG/TGM Revolution's momentum continues to swell. How good can Joe Average be let us assume 2 hours of practice time, 1 18 hole round, and 1 9 hole escape per week.

Hogan said that the "average" golfer should be a 70's shooter. What do we say?

Can we develop a "scoring" template?

Any ideas?

B

As long as they hack (hit the ball by thinking of hitting the ball), the average handicap will remain to be stagnant, regardless of LBG/TGM.

As soon as he/she swings (hit the ball without thinking of hitting the ball), the "average" golfer should be a 70's shooter in no time, regardless of LBG/TGM.

Originally Posted by bts As long as they hack (hit the ball by thinking of hitting the ball), the average handicap will remain to be stagnant, regardless of LBG/TGM.

As soon as he/she swings (hit the ball without thinking of hitting the ball), the "average" golfer should be a 70's shooter in no time, regardless of LBG/TGM.

I'd like to hear you expand on this if possible . . . how do you do the above.

Good post . . . I think your're on to something.

Originally Posted by bts As long as they hack (hit the ball by thinking of hitting the ball), the average handicap will remain to be stagnant, regardless of LBG/TGM.

As soon as he/she swings (hit the ball without thinking of hitting the ball), the "average" golfer should be a 70's shooter in no time, regardless of LBG/TGM.

bts,

Like Bucket, I am interested.

I have many students who before coming to me "swing" through the ball to a Tigeresque finish, but do not shoot in the 70's as you have described.

The problem really is not so much not "swinging" through.
The problem is that golfers swing through and Steer per 3-F-7-A.

An oversimplification perhaps bts?

Average Joe: "hacking the ball (conciously or subconciously)"-the intentions of moving the ball (high, far and straight) to the target through the club with the hands, wrists, arms, shoulders, hips, knees, legs or........

Top 0.1% of Joe: "swing the club"-the intentions of moving the club with the hands or other body parts, regardless of impact, ball flight, target, ......

Top 0.0001% of Joe, including Iron Byron: "sustain the lag"-the intention of sustaining through shoulder rotation only, regardless of the hands, wrists, arms, hips, knees, legs, club, impact, ball flight, target, ......

With Iron Byron, the game is boring!!!
With swinging, the game is less boring!!!
With hacking, the game is interesting!!!

Who wants to be bored?

Originally Posted by bts Average Joe: "hacking the ball (conciously or subconciously)"-the intentions of moving the ball (high, far and straight) to the target through the club with the hands, wrists, arms, shoulders, hips, knees, legs or........

Top 0.1% of Joe: "swing the club"-the intentions of moving the club with the hands or other body parts, regardless of impact, ball flight, target, ......

Top 0.0001% of Joe, including Iron Byron: "sustain the lag"-the intention of sustaining through shoulder rotation only, regardless of the hands, wrists, arms, hips, knees, legs, club, impact, ball flight, target, ......

With Iron Byron, the game is boring!!!
With swinging, the game is less boring!!!
With hacking, the game is interesting!!!

Who wants to be boring?

Are you saying that shoulder rotation is the end-all?
I guess poor Homer wrote too much about the Imperatives, Hand Monitoring etc then?

Originally Posted by comdpa Are you saying that shoulder rotation is the end-all?
I guess poor Homer wrote too much about the Imperatives, Hand Monitoring etc then?

It's actually "Sustain the resistance ("lag") encountered during shoulder rotation".

That's pretty much right!! Imperatives and essentials are the "effect" "caused" by "sustain the lag through shoulder rotation".

One last shot: you do the "cause" and the "effect" shows.

Originally Posted by comdpa bts,


The problem really is not so much not "swinging" through.
The problem is that golfers swing through and Steer per 3-F-7-A.

bts?

Ah... maybe we are in my territory....but I'm not sure. Is it possible to 'swing through' AND steer? If so, I'd think there might be more hope for me, because if I'm swinging through I ought to be able to overcome the mental issue of steering... but if steering is a physical swing issue it is more of a problem. I hope I'm making sense to you??? I can play pretty well occasionally ... sub par on rare occasions but I'm not consistent enough nor really as good as my best scores might indicate, my ballstriking is never that crisp (btw..my short game isn't too hot either..lol).

Originally Posted by psheehan Ah... maybe we are in my territory....but I'm not sure. Is it possible to 'swing through' AND steer? If so, I'd think there might be more hope for me, because if I'm swinging through I ought to be able to overcome the mental issue of steering... but if steering is a physical swing issue it is more of a problem. I hope I'm making sense to you??? I can play pretty well occasionally ... sub par on rare occasions but I'm not consistent enough nor really as good as my best scores might indicate, my ballstriking is never that crisp (btw..my short game isn't too hot either..lol).

psheehan

The swing that bts is referring to here is not the swinger's swing referenced in TGM.

He was referencing a 'swing through' rather than Quitting per 3-F-7-B.

The issue at hand here is the 3rd Imperative - A Straight Plane Line.

If you have a bent plane line which is caused by steering then you have an off line swing. The imperatives will not be maintained, but the golf club will still be 'swung' through - which is the point of my earlier post - 'swinging through' is an oversimplification to lower scores.

Steering is a mental problem for most because of the concept "hit the ball with a square face". That no doubt is a very sexy concept and will work IF and only IF the ball separates from the clubface INSTANTLY.

What we believe shows up in what we do...

Originally Posted by bts It's actually "Sustain the resistance ("lag") encountered during shoulder rotation".

That's pretty much right!! Imperatives and essentials are the "effect" "caused" by "sustain the lag through shoulder rotation".

One last shot: you do the "cause" and the "effect" shows.

Wow what a BOLD STATEMENT...I guess most of us on the forum have been wasting our time going through "much ado about nothing".

But wait a sec...per 5-0

"The alternative to Hand Controlled Pivot is, of course, Pivot Controlled Hands, per 10-24-F. That does not alter the Basic Geometry or Physics requirements, but assigns to Physics precedence over Geometry - Force dictating alignments. Which obviously reduces precision; but,also Clubhead Throwaway. The information for such procedure is all included herein - merely Monitor the Pivot instead of the Hands.

That is, primarily, the use of The Shoulder Turn Takeaway instead of Right Forearm Takeaway. But that procedure is so inferior that detailed consideration does not appear warranted except in a transitional undertaking.

However, if the Clubhead is Monitored directly instead of through the Hands, it is, as always, a chronic disaster. If the Hands are Monitored, Pivot Controlled Hands vanish."

What is your reply to this...getting interesting.

Originally Posted by comdpa Wow what a BOLD STATEMENT...I guess most of us on the forum have been wasting our time going through "much ado about nothing".

But wait a sec...per 5-0

"The alternative to Hand Controlled Pivot is, of course, Pivot Controlled Hands, per 10-24-F. That does not alter the Basic Geometry or Physics requirements, but assigns to Physics precedence over Geometry - Force dictating alignments. Which obviously reduces precision; but,also Clubhead Throwaway. The information for such procedure is all included herein - merely Monitor the Pivot instead of the Hands.

That is, primarily, the use of The Shoulder Turn Takeaway instead of Right Forearm Takeaway. But that procedure is so inferior that detailed consideration does not appear warranted except in a transitional undertaking.

However, if the Clubhead is Monitored directly instead of through the Hands, it is, as always, a chronic disaster. If the Hands are Monitored, Pivot Controlled Hands vanish."

What is your reply to this...getting interesting.

I have not much more to say on this, except that the "lag" is supposed to be sustained through all the body parts, especially the hands to which the club is connected, despite of being powered by shoulder rotation, and, indeed, it will be realized someday (hope not too far in the future) that "most of us on the forum have been wasting our time going through "much ado about nothing"".

Originally Posted by bts I have not much more to say on this, except that the "lag" is supposed to be sustained through all the body parts, especially the hands to which the club is connected, despite of being powered by shoulder rotation, and, indeed, it will be realized someday (hope not too far in the future) that "most of us on the forum have been wasting our time going through "much ado about nothing"".

bts,

You may not have "much more" to say, but for what you have said, I would expect you to at least have a working knowledge.

Can you elaborate on your 'thesis' and justify what you have put forth?

I am sure all the forum members here and those who have put in so much time (read: years) studying the book will appreciate your efforts.

I pity those who have put in so much time learning and understanding the laws of physics and geometry as regards the golf swing - including myself.

Originally Posted by comdpa bts,

You may not have "much more" to say, but for what you have said, I would expect you to at least have a working knowledge.

Can you elaborate on your 'thesis' and justify what you have put forth?

I am sure all the forum members here and those who have put in so much time (read: years) studying the book will appreciate your efforts.

I pity those who have put in so much time learning and understanding the laws of physics and geometry as regards the golf swing - including myself.

Me, too.

I have said it all (in my posts), repeatly, before. It's up to you to listen or not.

Good or bad you play the game, the sun arises the next day.

Originally Posted by bts Me, too.

I have said it all (in my posts), repeatly, before. It's up to you to listen or not.

Good or bad you play the game, the sun arises the next day.

No, you have merely DESCRIBED.

I asked you for an explanation and an elaboration but you shirk my request with a "I have said it all".

What is it that you have said aside from "Shoulder Rotation"?

You say "Shoulder Rotation" - I ask for a justification -you say "It's up to you to listen or not."

The issue at hand is not that I am not listening, it is that you are merely parroting and are not really sure of what you are saying...thus the avoidance of my questions and the lack of elucidation.