9-1-5...Pics

Yoda...It's not the Hogan pics..but they might get the ball rolling....It's now in your court....










AS

annakin what are you trying to show from these pics of the slammer

Nice pics, but I had a look at 9-1-5 and couldn't figure out what the pics here were supposed to tell us.
All I can see is a stationary head on the backswing from the slammer.
Alex

Possibly something to do with Standard Knee Action meaning more Hip Tilt and the Stationary Post/Head. And what about the Foot Flare?. Wow!
"Take it back slow and romp it up the barrelhead!". Play it again Sam!.

And maybe a Shiftless Hip Turn (Backstroke only)?.

Originally Posted by shivasmashie Possibly something to do with Standard Knee Action meaning more Hip Tilt and the Stationary Post/Head. And what about the Foot Flare?. Wow!
"Take it back slow and romp it up the barrelhead!". Play it again Sam!.

You're all over it . . . Standard Knee Action - "This sequence produces maximum Hip slant at each end of the Stroke."

Now for the WHY?

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket You're all over it . . . Standard Knee Action - "This sequence produces maximum Hip slant at each end of the Stroke."

Now for the WHY?

Looks like the tripod to me, hopefully in the 7th edition... stationary head, and hula hula.

2-H: "Though the 'Head' Pivot Center is recommended, it is not at all mandatory."

The two sides of the coin are interpereted from this sentence. My side: Homer recommends a stationary head. Another side: Your head doesn't have to sit still. He recommends it for a reason. By the way, a stationary head IS a Basic Essential. But others say the head can sway, and they even promote it. It's what I was taught to do, to no avail. I was even told that this (a sway) creates power. Am I in the ballpark, Yoda??

and these...

hi brian could you please post a brief description of the way you are trying to highlight, i must have missed it. i myself prefer a pivot where i turn more around my spine like snead which for me means standard knee action

Has anyone got pics of great players tilting their head on the other side of the Tripod?

Brian, would you say that if you were to sway your head to one side, it's better to be towards the right foot than the left? And why?

Lynn, I would like to state my case in reverse—if that's ok.

I FIRMLY believe that the Imperatives should dictate the components.

And, in the real world of teaching, choosing a 'pivot center'—the head or the base of the neck—is a component of sorts, a choice that the teacher needs to make in an area that has to be done, but can be done differently.

If I can get a student to COMPRESS the ball with lag pressure, 'draw' a straight Plane Line, & control the clubface with Hinge Action—and do it with a perfectly still head—then I do it.

But, from an athletic function standpoint, and from a pure performance standpoint, the base of the neck PIVOT CENTER works more of the time and is employed more of the time by world-class players over the years, in my opinion.

Also in my opinion, the IDEA that the head PERFECTLY between the feet and VERY STILL during the swing, is an IDEA that would hurt more people than it would help.

But, like Big Don Villavaso says "As sure as Gawd made little green apples," you could teach ALL of your students to have a head that is PERFECTLY between the feet and DEAD STILL during the swing, and be a very, very successful teacher.

I just believe—in my limited experience—that it is an OPTION, just like a Shoulder Turn Takeaway is an option, and an option that can help the right student at the right time.

I am VERY SORRY that Ted Fort had a tough time with the idea. As well as having trouble with a double shift, swinging, etc.

Ted, I think your swing is a good one, but I have NO DOUBT that I—as well as many others—could have taught you to have a through-the-neck pivot center and made you into a very good player, like you are.

When I started teaching David Toms, he had a dead still head, almost no hip turn, and sometimes never got the club on the Turned Shoulder Plane. So I "fixed" him.

Looking back, maybe I should have left his head still.

Of course, if you had a time machine, would you risk his career and life to find out if I was wrong or right?

I think what is missing is that the head is round and takes more space then a straight line. It rotates in its space like Mac. I only see Toms with a major shift to the right. Where you draw that line creates the debate.

Originally Posted by brianmanzella Here is some more...

Hope you don't take offense, but..

Top two pictures, something is out of whack. The backgrounds which should be static are not the same. I think the camera was moved between shots or something. The camera in one is higher than the other, and also closer.

Again there is a difference between frames regarding the background and your red line is definitely not in the same place if you use the background as a reference.

The Tom's pictures I think really give the wrong impression as well. Using the tree braches to the left at the top and his head, it hasn't move near what your lines indicate. Not saying it doesn't move a bit, but those lines make me think he is about to fall over and I doubt seriously that would be a product of your instruction.

Also the Snead pictures have questions regarding the background including the position of the ball to feet. Something is just not the same about both.

Interesting concept that the stationary head or neck would be considered a psuedo component/variation.

Realizing that the First essential is a Stationary Head, though 2-H does state it is recommended not mandatory. But when reading 1-L-1 and 1-L-2 it seems that the head is indicated and that it can move (turn) by the action of the pivot but not on its own.

So what in the Pivot would require the head to move? Wouldn't the pivot only require a turning? How can you move the head without disrupting the top of the spine unless you bend at the neck to lay the head down on the shoulder?

MARTEE:
"Top two pictures, something is out of whack. The backgrounds which should be static are not the same. I...The camera in one is higher than the other, and also closer."

MANZELLA:
The picture are not in a 'sequence,' so what?

The ball position is almost exact, so the angle is the same for reference sake. And at the top of THIS swing, Hogan's head is NOT PRECISELY IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS FEET!

MARTEE:
"Again there is a difference between frames regarding the background and your red line is definitely not in the same place if you use the background as a reference."

MANZELLA:
Nope. It is not in a squence (see above). But the two picture were lined up PERFECTLY in Photoshop and the ball and the red line are EXACTLY THE SAME!!!

Hogan, simply turned around his spine on this day.


MARTEE:
The Tom's pictures...blah, blah, blah....

MANZELLA:
Very shortly, on my new site, Mike Finney will post his entire swing video collection.

Trust me, Mike numbers are dead on.

But, like I said....go ahead and put your head precisely between your feet and keep it there.

What does that mean Lynn?

Originally Posted by brianmanzella
I just think that the IMPERATIVES should dictate all of the components and choices, and you believe something different.

"And I did it...maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy"

This is why they call him Yoda.

Originally Posted by brianmanzella This should be a good debate on whether the 'through the head pivot center' and the 'base of the neck pivot center' will help more golfers.

I want more on this debate!

Originally Posted by Yoda These concepts are central to the thesis. Centered Arc. You either believe it or you don't. If you do, then you teach according to the precepts of The Golfing Machine. If you do not...well...

You do not.

What if you believe 100% in the concepts of The Golfing Machine, but realise that there are some golfers out there who can play better without adhering to a Stationary Head, and by getting them to try to maintain a Stationary Head, they will not play to their full potential? Would you still get them to maintain a Stationary Head, or attempt some other variation, e.g. the 'top of the spine' Pivot Center.

Originally Posted by tongzilla I want more on this debate!





What if you believe 100% in the concepts of The Golfing Machine, but realise that there are some golfers out there who can play better without adhering to a Stationary Head, and by getting them to try to maintain a Stationary Head, they will not play to their full potential? Would you still get them to maintain a Stationary Head, or attempt some other variation, e.g. the 'top of the spine' Pivot Center.

Tong,

Those guys who "don't do the essentials" or don't do what is recommended for that matter simply have extreme athletic ability that eludes the general human population.

Case in point, I took my student out on course one fine day. On a par 5, I hit it 311 yards with a flat left wrist. He kills it 359 (this is no typo) yards with a bending left wrist, throwaway and a nice little bobbing action.

I have worked with him on a couple of things, and more often than not, he will hit VERY POORLY with what I have instructed.
I expect this to happen all the time.

One of the reasons is because the old habits are still dominant and trying to override the new ones that the player is trying to ingrain.

Sure, he will make me look good if he nails it the first time around (which happens) but then it makes me suspect if he did not use his old procedure instead.

Usually the "strike rate" is 3/10, then 4/10 until he reaches unconscious proficiency.

Can he get better? Of course. But do not expect the permanent transition in your students to be immediate. Getting from "here" to "there" is going to take some time.

"All things are difficult before they are easy."
Thomas Fuller, Physician

It is this transitory period that you have to rough it out mentally. The player will be thinking: "I was playing well with the old procedure...this new one sucks."

But when the old finally succumbs to the new habit, the player and coach will in joyous unison say: "WE did it." It is the instructor that informs and explains, the student absorbs and applies.

A transition will not take you 2 years...but it also will not take you 2 minutes. It is simply a matter of overlaying the old habit with a new one.

Want more examples? Plenty of Tour Pros do not have an onplane right forearm, stationary head, flying wedges etc...BUT they still manage to compensate and get back to impact correctly which is all that matters.

90% of the golfing population at large unfortunately do not have this ability to compensate.

Mr Kelly did 40 years of research which was validated by a Professor in quantum physics in Alabama.

If the man says any shift in planes is dangerous, it probably is. If the man says that a stationary head is ESSENTIAL, it probably is.

Don't reinvent the wheel

Leo,

I don't think you are going to get a legit discussion on this.

Centered Arc!

NO kidding. Who in the heck is saying the POST should move from release point THROUGH the follow-through?

Not me.

You see "Golfing Machine" fans, Leo "Tongzilla" was an attendee at the Canton School.

He is a young man.

He is tall and lean.

He is smart.

and........he has physical ability.

When he would dutifully attempt the "Pivot Tripod Center" with his head precisely between his feet, he would hit a weak slice with about a 200-210 carry......

....tops!

and In my opinion—doing this "Pivot Tripod Center" concept—Leo had a top-of-the-backstroke position that, was for all practical purposes, a reverse pivot.

He just didn't look 'golf like' at the top of the swing....to me....after 23 years of teaching everyone from hacker to Ryder Cupper.

So, when Leo worked with me, I put him in the top of the backswing position that looked like a GOLFER...to me...after giving 23 thousand golf lessons.

The students who were nearby confirmed—Leo looked more like a golfer.

Why?

Because the 5 guys would were watching had looked at golf on TV for 23 thousand hours collectively.....

and Leo DID look more like a golfer.

But, I digress...

Position Golf! The faithful cries!

Nope.

You see, I couldn't give a rat's rear end WHAT Leo LOOKED like, I knew that the REAL problem was Leo had to work WAY TO HARD to get his right shoulder on plane on the downstroke from the "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing.

From the Manzella "maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" backswing, Leo hit a STRONG 240-250 carry draw.

Great right?

Nope.

Leo was sad,

Leo—a great student and student of G.O.L.F.—didn't want to hit these TOUR-like shots with a backswing that violated any 'rules of G.O.L.F.'

I brought Ben Doyle over to look at Leo's backswing, Ben Loved the Manzella-"maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" backswing. He then posed Leo in a very similar—if not exact—top of the backstroke position.

Yet, Leo was sad.

So, Leo left the school being able to hit it pure as snow with the Manzella-"maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" backswing or 30 yards shorter and 20 yards to the right with a "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing.

He has then talked to some other noted teachers, like Bobby Schaffer, who confirmed what I am saying, that the "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing, is just that—a concept. One way to skin a cat. But NOT the only way.

Leo still would like some nice debate on what works better in the real world, but
all he gets is Frank Sinatra songs.

So, sports fans, we sit a place called the crossroads, looking dead in the eye of another concept—branding.

Lynn is positioning himself as the ultimate staright out of Homer Kelley's mouth teacher on planet earth, ready to revolutionize golf with the "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing and the "Right Forearm Takeaway."He has done a great job with this positioning, and a GREAT job getting Homer's little-known concepts some well-deserved light. He is a super motivator, a charming large group indoor presenter, and like Ben Doyle says "He really knows the book."

Brian Manzella—that would be me—just wants to be the best teacher on the planet, and take over (revolutionize) golf by helping the most players play better and the most teachers teach better, by using science, like—but not exclusively—The Golfing Machine, to assist the teacher in finding a pattern that the student can produce the lowest scores with. Letting "The Imperatives Dictate the components." My brand is simply this—I can get you to do it and I can get you to understand it, but the IT will be, whatever works AS LONG AS IT PRODUCES A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE, CLUBHEAD LAG and CONTROLS THE CLUBFACE WITH HINGE ACTION.

In my opinion—yes "maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" opinion—the golf world is better for having us both.

And Leo need to turn around the base of his neck.

I am a little confused about the head movement/setup discussion, which may be a little different than the food fight here but thought I would post anyway. What about the head movement of the following and what is wrong with it?
-Nicklaus and Faldo with the little head twist before takeaway
-Duval, Annika, Durant with the head turn to get thru the ball
-Curtis Strange backswing head movement
-Tiger's head drop.

All these players have a different head movement but all have won multiple times with many Majors.

Originally Posted by brianmanzella
In my opinion—yes "maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" opinion—the golf world is better for having us both.

And Leo need to turn around the base of his neck.

Brian, you are a real interesting guy. Any chance of you coming over to Singapore. Would love to buy you a beer!

I love to 'come over."

If you want to "take over" the golf wrold, you have to be willing to travel to the golf WORLD.

But, I drink Diet Coke.

Okay, maybe I am missing something here so if a few will humor me and respond to the questions, maybe I will understand.. Please bear with my strange logical path here:

1. The head, movement on its own can be
a. Up and Down
b. Around (rotate)
c. Side to side (ear to shoulder)
d. Combination of the above

Isn't all this independent head moving accomplished with the base, the neck for a lack of proper technical terms, as the point of movement?

Isn't this the type of independent movement that Homer said was not to happen regarding the Stationary Head?

2. This 'tripod' is it suppose to be an 'Isosceles Triangle (2 sides of equal length)'? Doesn't a tripod indicate 3 legs?

Now for my ignorance...

3. Where does TGM state the head is to be in the center of the stance?

I mean 1-L-1, 1-L-2 and 2-H, don't state that as I read them.

4. If the pivot center of the shoulders are permitted to move (other than rotate), side to side, up or down, doesn't this indicate either
a. Set up position is not correct if this movement accomplishes correct alignment at impact?
b. If the movement moves off and the back on prior to impact, isn't this a case several compensating moves that serve no purpose if they weren't done? (This assumes that moves counter each other to null out the result).
c. Wouldn't the Low Point be moved by moving the pivot center? (Would this account for a variation where the ball placement would either be more forward or backward depending upon the movement from what might consider optimal as defined by the primary lever?)
d. Can 'POWER' not alignment be accomplished more effectively with a moving pivot center over a static center? If so does this require a certain degree of hand/eye coordination, timing, etc.?

5. Movement of the pivot center, would this not encourage swaying and bobbing in the less physical golfers?

6. Do we get confused when monitoring he head by the face on view, when in-fact rotation is acceptable and most heads have more depth than width coupled with the angle lending itself to appear to move up and down and sideways when it is really rotation? Obviously some head movements are truly head movements when we see them the static reference points in the background clearly show this, while others the appearance may be deceiving?

I have always subscribed to a stationary head, rotate okay, but moving off the ball or toward the ball seem to me making the golf stroke more difficult and more dependent upon timing and other physical and mental attributes. In short it complicates IMO. That is not to say you can't move it, and that you won't get better resutls but the reason for the better results may be that you are now compensating for mixed component variations or fault execution.

So without attack, etc. Can I get some answers so I can better understand the discussion and learn....

I think a topic on the 'Tripod' and component variations how it impacts alignments and Impact Fix would be interesting in a different thread.

What about Sandy Lyle??? The guy wins a couple of majors with all kinds of head movement, then tries to "fix his problem" and is never heard from again. Wouldn't you think that someone who rose to the level of Major Champion with so called bad mechanics would improve when he did it right?

Ted,

I NEVER teach a double shift....I DO allow it. Big difference.

You missed one important point, the guy from Louisiana could have made you a better player than the one who wouldn't adapt.

You see, that's IS the debate (and where your former teacher went wrong)

Adjust until it works or not.

Let the IMPERATIVES dictate the components.

Oh yeah, one day I'll show you how to fade it with a flat left wrist finish swivel.

No problem....IF you know how to teach.

Originally Posted by annikan skywalker
This is a TGM...Forum...I thought it was funny in the Glossary when it used to say..."Chosing the Head" instead of the corrected version of "Choosing the Head"...

Does this imply a "Choice"??????????????????

Uh oh.....Choice means variation to me......

But I know where Master Yoda stands ...and I support his Posture on this....

As well as Mr. Manzella...great points and great pics

I guess I sleep in more than one camp.....

I did not expect 3 pictures of Snead to escalate into a forest fire...I'll contribute some kerosene to help put the fire out!!!

AS

Annikan, I'm in your camp -- the camp that sleeps in more than one camp

I wouldn't label say this is a forest fire yet. I've seen much worse (not around here fortunately!). I love lively debates with a bit of emotion, people fighting for what they believe in. And this is what we have here.

The point is that Brian doesn't just teach the "through the neck pivot center". I think (correct me if I'm wrong Brian), if you were to coach Ted now, you would not get him to change from 'head center' to 'neck center'.

Originally Posted by annikan skywalker We're here...lurking....observing..learning...

The "eyes" are what stay centered in the tripod ...

You see a camera sets atop of a tripod in the center...right...well you can rotate the camera clockwise and it would appear to move to the right while staying perfectly centered..In the case of "The human camera"... the lens of the camera can move along the "horizontal axis of the eyes" and while maintaining a centered gaze keeping the object in the middle of the fovial...The pictures Mr.Manzella drew with Mac O'Grady show this camera rotating clockwise which gives the appearance of the head moving to the right ..but just 20 degrees of neck rotation ...meanwhile the eyes are moving along the horizontal axis in the opposite direction...

Could Eye Dominance play a roll here? Fat Jack was left eye dominant. Some theorist say that's why he did that turning his head to the right thing before start up . . .

Originally Posted by brianmanzella Ted,

I NEVER teach a double shift....I DO allow it. Big difference.

You missed one important point, the guy from Louisiana could have made you a better player than the one who wouldn't adapt.

You see, that's IS the debate (and where your former teacher went wrong)

Adjust until it works or not.

Let the IMPERATIVES dictate the components.

Oh yeah, one day I'll show you how to fade it with a flat left wrist finish swivel.

No problem....IF you know how to teach.

The only debate I see is the willingness to follow Homer, his teachings, his reccommendations, and his variations in their purest form with component variations to follow. OR, one can choose to ignore his suggestions.
I have no problem teaching the appropriate finish swivel as explained in the book. It's not my own creation.

Originally Posted by Yoda Ted Fort teaches the correct Finish Swivel every day. He teaches that the Wrists rotate into a 'parallel to the Plane' position after the Follow-Through. And that Plane is Inclined, not Horizontal (4-D-0).

Really?

How 'bout that!

Back to topic...

Originally Posted by annikan skywalker Back to topic...

Looks like Tiger's spine is closer to the target in frames 3 & 4? Then the patented Bobbing. But Eldrick's got MAJORs and Bucket's got a MAJOR addiction to chicken and taters. So what can you do?

I like annikan skywalker rear view. To me that is easier to see what is what regarding moving and rotation.

Does Tiger set up with his shoulders open somewhat to the target line? I couldn't quickly find a picture if he did or not.

None the less I think it shows the head rotation effect.

The hip rotation/slide on the backstroke

And the leg action on down and follow through. Boy that left leg really raises the left shoulder, changes the axis tilt.

Thought it was interesting his head never gets back to the position (alignment/orientation) that the had at address till the ball is well away. The second frame is closer to the impact position than the first.

Here are two more....

Mac O'Grady



Tom Purtzer

Originally Posted by YodasLuke I'm simply stating that the data given in the comparison are wrong. There are other factors here that lead to illusion. There is a hole at the base of the skull where the spinal cord enters called the foramen magnum. The skull is oblong (not a perfect circle) and this hole is located BEHIND an ear to ear diameter. Additionally, the bones furthest forward in the skull are the front teeth. The nose is cartilage that protrudes even farther from the center of the head. Therefore, rotation around the spine, a single axis would cause the nose, as a point of reference, to move dramatically. The Stationary Post (a players head) may turn (Pivot) but does not "sway" or "bob". And, this relationship does not look like a lollipop on a stick. The spine is not centered in the base of the skull. Rotation creates 'movement' if looking at the face. This is the lesser of the details.
The second is the ability for the head of the humerus (the top of the upper arm bone) to protract (to extend forward or the feeling of making your shoulders touch in front of your sternum). The shoulder is also on a concentric circle with the head or spine as the axis, which would be measureably further than the nose or face from the center of rotation. A common myth in golf instruction is that the shoulders turn as if they are a steel bar accross the spine. It is NOT the case. Simply measuring an angle created by the movement (turning) of the left shoulder includes no portion for range of motion (protraction) created through extensor action. Seemingly, this angle would be created by turning the shoulders as much as possible with some 'head' movement ("sway"). WRONG! You lose double Jeapordy! Without the above mentioned considerations the article referenced earlier would seem to have merit. When my left shoulder is under my chin, my right shoulder is still very visible from a front view. This means a different degree of "turn" is happening in each shoulder.
Yoda's been very busy with people coming in from out of town, and without his help, I would have never seen these things. When he has time, he will post the DEFINITIVE post on 9-1-5. I'm anxious to see it.

Wow, Teddy, none of this is in Homer's book "The Golfing Machine," His 80 hours of audio, couple hours of video or notes.

Does this mean we can use other data in debate around this place?

I will say this—this post is harder to read than the book.

Anyway, here is a little common sense and some (easy to read) hard facts:

• The Spine is NOT in the middle of the torso, nor the middle of the head.

• The center of the spine is also not in the rear of the torso, nor the head.

• You can hit a golf ball at a world-class level with many different points used as the 'center of rotation.'

• You don't hit the ball on the backswing.

• When you change the center of rotation on the backstroke, you change the path the hands take on the backstroke some, but change their path dramatically on the downswing.

• When you change the center of rotation on the backstroke, you change the path the CLUBHEAD takes on the backstroke some, but change the CLUBHEAD path dramatically on the downswing.

• The bottom of the spine, the tailbone, moves all over dodge in a Stationary Head swing, as well as a bunch in other 'center of rotation' locations. On the downswing it has to move some to tilt the axis, and that movement has more than just a toward the target dimension for some plane lines.

• The center of gravity in the body (swing) is located well below the head in the lower torso area.

• Just as MORAD states, the head movement is obviously something that influences the pattern a great deal.

The point here Teddy, is that there is libraries full of data in biomechanics and other disciplines that would really muddy the water in the search for the PERFECT 'swing.' Homer had bunch figured out, but obviously not everything.

I teach a lot of people to have a perfectly steady head, because for them it works better.

But, you and Lynn are saying you ONLY teach it one way—totally still head—which means our friend Leo Tong(zilla) went totally with LBG's teachings, he would have to HOPE and PRAY that he would be able to hit it as good with a "pivot tripod center," as he does with a different—more "spine centered" center of backstroke rotation. Because, right now, and at Canton, his RESULTS say that you are wrong.

Originally Posted by rwh The desired head position is shown in the photos in 9-1 -- the "Body Zone". These photos are shown for the stated purpose of depicting the movement of the body that will result in "balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso." In each of the photos, 9-1-1 through 9-1-12, there is a white card on the background curtain that serves as a reference for the motionless head throughout the swing.

See 2-R for a note on how to interpret photos in the book.

Thanks for your reply.

I was hoping that you would reference the photos in 9-1. They too show head movement( more than just head swivel) and your reference to 2-R is the key. Homer states that the photos were posed as expertly as he was able to achieve "as near to 'zero tolerance' as humanly possible". This is the key. Surely his intention is to try to achieve stable head but is aware that this cannot always be achieved ( even when the model is posed by Homer himself - let alone during a full swing).

NOW compare the conditions under which these photos are created with those that have lead to 10 pages of discussion!! Non tripod, non sequencial action photos!! One cannot draw ABSOLUTE conclusions from material of this quality. It may be all we have to work with but that does NOT mean we should therefore work with it - not if the level of conclusion you desire is proof for or against such "absolute" laws.

The real answer is get better data! THEN draw conclusions.

I remember the demonstration of a peice of string with weight tied to one end. You can move your hand in very tiny cirlces and spin the weight around and around in a circle. You can generate a ton of speed with very little movement of the hand.

BUT! The minute you start moving the hand laterally (ie, swaying) it kills the natural spinning motion of the weight and it slows down dramatically.

So while I wouldn't argue you can't hit a golf ball while swaying, it seems like you are robbing yourself of clubhead speed not to mention the inconsistency of trying to always sway back into the correct position to hit the ball. Swaying requires compensations.

So I guess the real question from the instructor's point of view is, if you have a talented athlete who hits the ball great with a swaying motion should you try to change it? And would you ever teach a swaying motion to someone who wasn't swaying?

Stated another way - should the instructor try to teach the student to have the fewest compensations possible? It seems this is the essence of TGM. Mr. Kelley never said you CAN'T have compenstations, but he did say you should strive to eliminate them to have the most effective stroke.

I have had a lot of instructors over the years that gave me band-aids and never attempted to teach me the correct alignmnets and a stroke with miminal compensations. I wasted my time and money on every one of them.

Originally Posted by brianmanzella But, you and Lynn are saying you ONLY teach it one way—totally still head—which means our friend Leo Tong(zilla) went totally with LBG's teachings, he would have to HOPE and PRAY that he would be able to hit it as good with a "pivot tripod center," as he does with a different—more "spine centered" center of backstroke rotation. Because, right now, and at Canton, his RESULTS say that you are wrong.

Pleeeeease Brian.

http://www.par543.com/videos/9dec05.avi

1-K: "There is no factor -- including Clubhead Throwaway -- that cannot, by proper assembly, adjustment, alignment, etc., be worked into a fairly effective Stroke Pattern for some application or other."

1-H: "There is little excuse for focing the average weekend golfer -- who has some strong tendency or other -- to adopt any procedure or Stroke Pattern that calls for the elimination of that tendency. It is far easier to develop a Stroke Pattern that properly compensates for it. Change the factors that are easily controlled to fit those that are difficult to change.

1-E: "The student must not expect to play a game with more precision than is built into it. But every student should achieve a commensurate degree of consistency and play with a satisfying assurance of competence to perform within these built-in limitations and that, at any time, the limitations can be reduced by merely increasing the precision of all or any part of the present game."

Ok, Leo.

I think I made my point.

When you have been reduced to "some guy in Louisiana" who isn't teaching TGM, you have to stand up or run.


Lynn,

Couldn't agree more on the Homer concept of weight shift. One of his top 5 "greatest hits."

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Next thing these foreigners'll be whinin' about the BBQ . . .

Don't even go there. I'm from Texas. We is speakin' different languages.

Originally Posted by Martee Well it is a bit wet but I did play yesterday and planning on playing tomorrow. Worst case is I will break down and buy a rain suit or umbrella (my last one dried rotted in the desert(.

But I like NC.....

I like NC, but every day off I have had for the last 2 months has been rainy or too cold. Must be me.

Originally Posted by efnef Don't even go there. I'm from Texas. We is speakin' different languages.

Oh boy . . . One of them. Oink beats Moo every time!

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Oh boy . . . One of them. Oink beats Moo every time!

most national BBQ chicken winners almost every year - Georgia

When you later said in regards to the great pictures Martee made.

This is the first post

The picture are not in a 'sequence,' so what?

Actually this is absolutely incorrect! They are a sequence and now I fixed the frames 'in photoshop' after being scanned badly, we can see quite clearly that they are a match just how far off this line is...

[quote]

Originally Posted by brianmanzella Oh yeah...

...also notice I cleaned up your work , (much clearer...lol)

Hmmmmm No.....

Your yellow line goes right through Sam's Shoulder Blade...lol

Now, I knew there would be no picture with lines on it that would prove/convince you to you what im about to show you - so I took extreme measures ....lol



Now I don't believe you can argue with this line right ?....

Ok, lets look at the backstroke...



Notice how at address the spine is tilted towards the target and how the spine leans away from the target....

Now look at the photo of snead again beside me....



Is this supposed to be cleaning up my work, or you just not doing your homework ?

Like I said in another thread, Mathew, a PERFECT backswing by you.

Hey Brian you were only about half a heads width out....lol

Great job, Matthew. And thank God you kept your pants on this time.