Posterchild for Hitters - Stuart Appleby

annikan skywalker
Here is a sequence from the 1999 US Open at Pinehurst....

RFT...
Top Assembly Point...
Turned Shoulder Plane...
Angled Hinge Action...
etc...

Rob2197
Very Nice post!!
I really enjoyed this one. So am I correct in assuming that a hitter should still have wristcock and forearm rotation but it's just not as much as a swinger?

It seems to me that most pics I've seen of pure hitters like this also may indicate that hitters keep the right foot down after impact a slight bit longer?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm so confused about TGM right now.
12 piece bucket
Originally Posted by annikan skywalker Here is a sequence from the 1999 US Open at Pinehurst....

RFT...
Top Assembly Point...
Turned Shoulder Plane...
Angled Hinge Action...
etc...

THESE FREAKIN' ALIGNMENTS ARE STRONG LIKE OTIS DRUNK'S BREATH AFTER UNLOCKIN' CELL IN THE MORNING!!!
comdpa
Originally Posted by annikan skywalker Here is a sequence from the 1999 US Open at Pinehurst....

RFT...
Top Assembly Point...
Turned Shoulder Plane...
Angled Hinge Action...
etc...

Hey Mr Annikan,

Thanks for all these pictures....keep em coming.
billmckinneygolf
I'd call him a Hinger..HITTer with SWINGer characteristics.
When you see his MOTION, you should see a lot of the flow of
CF.
Hey Justin and everyone, Happy New Year.
comdpa
Originally Posted by billmckinneygolf I'd call him a Hinger..HITTer with SWINGer characteristics.
When you see his MOTION, you should see a lot of the flow of
CF.
Hey Justin and everyone, Happy New Year.
Hey Billy and everyone, Happy New Year!
12 piece bucket
If you want to see Right Forearm Flying Wedge in action . . . this is it.
Rhythm
I have looked at his motion many times and could not discern whether it was hitting or swinging. I have always leaned towards swinging. It appears he uses horizontal hinging in his follow through. Or could he be swinging using an angled hinge. A swinger could assemble at the top also. I am still not sure. What else makes you think he is hitting, has he ever made a comment that he pushes? Sometimes it is hard to tell.
comdpa
Originally Posted by Rhythm I have looked at his motion many times and could not discern whether it was hitting or swinging. I have always leaned towards swinging. It appears he uses horizontal hinging in his follow through. Or could he be swinging using an angled hinge. A swinger could assemble at the top also. I am still not sure. What else makes you think he is hitting, has he ever made a comment that he pushes? Sometimes it is hard to tell.
In the fifth frame of the sequence it is readily apparent that his elbow is in a "down and at the side" position.

Yes, hinge action does not differentiate between hitting and swinging (10-19-0.

In frame 2 Backstroke 8-5, the face is in an angled hinge position.

In frame 4 Top 8-6, it is clear that angled hinging is employed.

Again, at Followthrough 8-11, one can see the angled hinge that is employed.

Also he is using a single wrist action per 10-18-C. The left wrist cocks due to the bending of the right elbow per 7-3, but there is no independent turning of the left wrist to the face of the plane as a true swinger would employ with his standard wrist action of 10-18-A and 4-D-0.
EdZ
Originally Posted by Rhythm I have looked at his motion many times and could not discern whether it was hitting or swinging. I have always leaned towards swinging. It appears he uses horizontal hinging in his follow through. Or could he be swinging using an angled hinge. A swinger could assemble at the top also. I am still not sure. What else makes you think he is hitting, has he ever made a comment that he pushes? Sometimes it is hard to tell.
A hitter's alignments with the Rhythm of a swinger

A truly 'solid' combination. Some of the absolute best motions are those which it is hard to tell if they are swingers or hitters.

He appears to me to be a hitter with a wonderful sense of 'smooth and heavy motion'.

To be a swinger, he would need a 'longer gear train' to get CF flowing. If he were to have the pivot motion of someone like VJ, he'd hook it every time, or have to hold off the clubface, because CF would take over.

The fact that his right foot is still fairly flat through impact is a good sign that CF is not the primary force at play, because to use CF you need more rotation than seen here IMO.

Thanks for such wonderful photos Annikan, this is one of the best 'models' for folks to study IMO. The smooth tempo of the swinger, and the alignments of the hitter.

Does anyone know if he is able to use a more square clubface at address? I would think the tempo he uses would be a good compensation for the fade tendency of the angled hinge which might allow a more square clubface at address.
bray
Originally Posted by Rob2197 Very Nice post!!
I really enjoyed this one. So am I correct in assuming that a hitter should still have wristcock and forearm rotation but it's just not as much as a swinger?

It seems to me that most pics I've seen of pure hitters like this also may indicate that hitters keep the right foot down after impact a slight bit longer?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm so confused about TGM right now.

First Question:
Should a hitter have wristcock?
No, a hitter can have wrist cock, but that could destroy some of the radial motion of hitting. It is better to think of the right wrist as level throughout the backswing and into impact.

Should a hitter have right forearm rotation?
Yes, the difference from a swinger is that a hitter gradually rotates from address all the way to the top. The right forearm than gradualy squares up from top to impact.

You could say Appleby looks so good because his rate of rotation is so good as a hitter the forearm gradually rotates all the way through the stroke.

I have learned the above from my time spent with Yodasluke and Annikan Skywalker. As for your second question I will leave that for them to answer.

Hopefully this helps clear the fog.

Sorting through the circuit player's handbook.

B-Ray
Rob2197
So a hitter should strive for only a double barrel accumlator 1st & 3rd?

I thought it was triple barrel including wristcock per 12-1-0
bray
Thanks Rob,

You helped me learn something today!!

I had to call Yodasluke to clear myself up on your reply.

A hitter does have left wrist cock, however the focus is not on cocking the left wrist. The focus is on maintaining the right forearm flying wedge to Top. The left wrist cock occurs at Top because of the load of the shaft and the folding of the right elbow.

So....The hitter that needs a swing thought, may want to think of the stroke in more of a double barrel manner. Focusing on the right arm flying wedge and proper use of the right elbow, folding and unfolding.

Sorting through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

Oh yea and Thanks Ted!! You are the MAN!
Yoda
Originally Posted by Rob2197
So a hitter should strive for only a double barrel accumlator 1st & 3rd?

I thought it was triple barrel including wristcock per 12-1-0
In the Hitter's Basic Stroke Pattern (12-1-0), three Accumulators -- #1 (Right Elbow), #2 (Left Wrist) and #3 (Left Hand) -- are driven through only two Pressure Points -- #1 (the heel of the Right Hand against the Left Hand thumb) and #3 (the meaty part of the right forefinger where it contacts the back of the Clubshaft).

During the Start Down, Hitters use the Pivot in conjunction with the Hands resisting the change of direction at the Top to Drive Load (10-19-A) the entire Primary Lever Assembly (the Left Arm and Club) against Pressure Points #1 and #3. Since the Right Elbow is directly behind and supporting this Assembly (6-B-3-0-1), it is likewise Loaded (6-H-0-E #5). This Loaded Lag Pressure with the full support of the Right Forearm and Elbow is then Delivered Down Plane with absolutely no change whatever in the Pressure.

During the Downstroke and Release, the Right Arm drives the Left Arm through Pressure Point #1 (10-11-0-1). Simultaneously, the Right Arm also drives the Clubshaft through Pressure Point #3 (6-C-2-C). Thus, the active drive of the Uncocking Right Elbow (7-1 and 6-B-3-A) against the #3 Pressure Point (10-11-0-3) both Uncocks the Left Wrist (7-3) and Rolls the Left Hand (6-B-3-0). Because Pressure Point #2 (the last three fingers of the Left Hand) is not used to actuate the Left Wrist, its function is reduced to merely holding the Club.

Swingers, however, utilize three Pressure Points when using a Three Accumulator Stroke. Power Accumulator #4 (the Left Arm) is Loaded by the Pivot against Pressure Point #4 (where the Left Arm contacts the side), and this Drag Loading Action (10-19-C) Loads the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Clubshaft only) via the Left Wrist (6-H-0-F #5) through Pressure Point #2. However, this does not result in an active drive of the Clubshaft because Centrifugal Force alone powers the Club (10-11-0). This 'Passive Clubhead Lag' (10-11-0-2) -- the Clubshaft being Pulled lengthwise directly toward the Plane Line (6-C-2-A) -- sets up the Centrifugal chain reaction (6-M-1) that ultimately pulls the Clubhead into its In Line condition (6-C-0-4) of Full Extension (2-P).

In a Maximum Power Pivot Stroke, the Hitter also will use the Pivot to load Pressure Point #4 (as opposed to a Three Accumulator Stroke wherein the Right Shoulder simply provides motion in the Start Down and then acts as the backstop for the driving Right Arm in Release). In which case, there will be a Four Accumulator Stroke. However, the Swinger is best advised to use a Three Accumulator maximum because any attempt to use the Right Arm -- other than to Trace with the Clubhead Lag Pressure and for Extensor Action and its support (through Pressure Point #1) of the Left Arm's Pull of the Clubshaft (not a Powering of the Clubshaft itself) -- will conflict with the Stroke's Centrifugal drive and actually result in a Power Loss, not a Power Gain.
golfmachine
I would love to see how he got from 7 to 8. I am trying to figure out how long you keep the right wrist bent. Any chance you have more photos?
YodasLuke
Poster child for great information: Annikan Skywalker
Rob2197
Originally Posted by YodasLuke Poster child for great information: Annikan Skywalker
I second that. Annikan always has the most informative pics on his posts. Kudos Annikan. I still can't like you completely though because you took the name I would've chosen

Rob
12 piece bucket
Originally Posted by Yoda During the Start Down, Hitters use the Pivot in conjunction with the Hands resisting the change of direction at the Top to Drive Load (10-19-A) the entire Primary Lever Assembly (the Left Arm and Club) against Pressure Points #1 and #3. Since the Right Elbow is directly behind and supporting this Assembly (6-B-3-0-1), it is likewise Loaded (6-H-0-E #5). This Loaded Lag Pressure with the full support of the Right Forearm and Elbow is then Delivered Down Plane with absolutely no change whatever in the Pressure.
Collards,

The Hands resisting the change of direction at the Top . . . is this "leaving the hands at the Top?" And the Pivot thus supplies the initial Load to #1, #3 and the Right Elbow?

Thanks!

B
tongzilla
Originally Posted by Yoda In a Maximum Power Pivot Stroke, the Hitter also will use the Pivot to load Pressure Point #4 (as opposed to a Three Accumulator Stroke wherein the Right Shoulder simply provides motion in the Start Down and then acts as the backstop for the driving Right Arm in Release). In which case, there will be a Four Accumulator Stroke. However, the Swinger is best advised to use a Three Accumulator maximum because any attempt to use the Right Arm -- other than to Trace with the Clubhead Lag Pressure and for Extensor Action and its support (through Pressure Point #1) of the Left Arm's Pull of the Clubshaft (not a Powering of the Clubshaft itself) -- will conflict with the Stroke's Centrifugal drive and actually result in a Power Loss, not a Power Gain.

Yoda,

Hence my conclusion that a Maximum Power Stroke (2-M-2) for the Basic Swinging Pattern (12-2) will hit the Ball further than the Basic Hitting Pattern (12-1), everything else being equal.

Do you see the logic of my conclusion, and do you think it's well founded?
comdpa
Originally Posted by phillygolf Ok...to back myself up.

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline...4482%2C00.html

Standard Address with bent left wrist.
No preturned hip - and swinging motion on backswing.
Top.
Right forearm inline with - not opposed to.
Instant Acceleration Hip Action.
Sequenced Release.

Most importantly - Frame 10. Shaft is bowing TOWARDS the target - wouldnt happen if he was hitting and thrust were continuing to be applied, no? I cannot see the bow of the shaft at transition - so need to go on this (though his right forearm is in no way a position to push).

Frame 12, full roll of horizontal hinging. With a driver. Not a wedge.

Uh oh.....I'm in trouble now!
Hi Patrick,

I know the debate is centered on Appleby being a "Hitting Pin Up".

I think that your analysis on the url you provided is absolutely spot on.

That said, the analysis provided by the other forum faithful with regards to Apples is correct also, because it is evident that he in fact was hitting in the sequence provided by Mr David Orr a.k.a Annikan Skywalker.

I think many of us are one dimensional in playing. That is to say the vast majority of us can only swing or hit, but not both.

And because of this, we sometimes fail to remember that the pros we study are different fishes altogether, thus we tend to categorise them into "swinger" or "hitter" exclusively.

Personally, I am a 3 Barrel Swinger as well as a 4 Barrel Hitter.

Per the Preface: "Hitting and Swinging seem equally efficient. The difference is in the players. If strong - Hit. If quick - Swing. If both - do either. Or both."

A sizeable number of pros i.e Mr Eldrick Woods fall into the "both" category as does Mr. Appleby.

On hindsight, referencing your posts, a better name for the thread would be "Classic Hitting / Swinging Exhibition".
Just a suggestion...
phillygolf
Originally Posted by comdpa Hi Patrick,

I know the debate is centered on Appleby being a "Hitting Pin Up".

I think that your analysis on the url you provided is absolutely spot on.

That said, the analysis provided by the other forum faithful with regards to Apples is correct also, because it is evident that he in fact was hitting in the sequence provided by Mr David Orr a.k.a Annikan Skywalker.

I think many of us are one dimensional in playing. That is to say the vast majority of us can only swing or hit, but not both.

And because of this, we sometimes fail to remember that the pros we study are different fishes altogether, thus we tend to categorise them into "swinger" or "hitter" exclusively.

Personally, I am a 3 Barrel Swinger as well as a 4 Barrel Hitter.

Per the Preface: "Hitting and Swinging seem equally efficient. The difference is in the players. If strong - Hit. If quick - Swing. If both - do either. Or both."

A sizeable number of pros i.e Mr Eldrick Woods fall into the "both" category as does Mr. Appleby.

On hindsight, referencing your posts, a better name for the thread would be "Classic Hitting / Swinging Exhibition".
Just a suggestion...
Comda,
Thank you for your elegant and mostly, insightful post. Sometimes, when one (ok - me!), looks through starry eye'd glasses, we (again, caught myself - I!) see what I want to....

Thank you for reminding me there is more then meets the eye!!!


And...I believe we are the only two to mention swinging in 6 threads of this post! (uh oh - I'm in trouble again)...

EdZ
Originally Posted by phillygolf Comda,
Thank you for your elegant and mostly, insightful post. Sometimes, when one (ok - me!), looks through starry eye'd glasses, we (again, caught myself - I!) see what I want to....

Thank you for reminding me there is more then meets the eye!!!


And...I believe we are the only two to mention swinging in 6 threads of this post! (uh oh - I'm in trouble again)...

From page 1

Originally Posted by EdZ A hitter's alignments with the Rhythm of a swinger
annikan skywalker
Originally Posted by Thom Congrats to Apples
Third Mercedes in a row......

This is what angled hinging looks like at follow through (both arms straight)
If this isn't a hitting motion...then I just don't know hitting.....Yes...we are seeing angled hinging ...but as a result of "drive out of the paddlewheel motion of the right forearm flying wedge"...NOT Throw out of the Left Arm flying wedge via the blast off of the Pivot!!!!\

BTW both arms are Not straight...left arm is cracked....
ASS
fmlutz
I agree. Stuart is probably able to do both. Looks like he swings with the driver and longer clubs and hits with the mid and short irons. Although it looks like his swing has changed somewhat- he is more compact and seems to hit a lot more of the time. Just my .02!

Mike
Thom
Another indication of Appleby's hitting, is his waggles.
He'll bend and straighten his right elbow = driving the shaft.
EC
Originally Posted by annikan skywalker If this isn't a hitting motion...then I just don't know hitting.....Yes...we are seeing angled hinging ...but as a result of "drive out of the paddlewheel motion of the right forearm flying wedge"...NOT Throw out of the Left Arm flying wedge via the blast off of the Pivot!!!!\

BTW both arms are Not straight...left arm is cracked....
ASS
Dr. O,

I'm horning in late again, but how could anybody look at this picture and not see textbook hitting? Ball above feet, club choked down to compensate and angled hinged to hold the shot off the slope, bent left arm (if it was pulling, it would be more extended), and of course the paddlewheel DRIVE out of the right forearm...it's a HIT!!!

EC
bray
Does anyone have a sequence with Appleby hitting a driver??

I think it would be interesting to see in contrast to the sequence posted in this thread. I have seen pics of Appleby hitting driver recently, and although I don't have any to post. I do believe he is still hitting, however he does take driver to end instead of top.

Sorting through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray
comdpa
Originally Posted by EdZ From page 1
Join us Edz...The 3 Musketeers...
phillygolf
Originally Posted by annikan skywalker If this isn't a hitting motion...then I just don't know hitting.....Yes...we are seeing angled hinging ...but as a result of "drive out of the paddlewheel motion of the right forearm flying wedge"...NOT Throw out of the Left Arm flying wedge via the blast off of the Pivot!!!!\

BTW both arms are Not straight...left arm is cracked....
ASS
Annikan...

No disrespect, you'r my boy. But in all seriousness - if you, or anyone - can tell hitting via a posed shot at the end of the sequence, well.......

I dont agree.

Look back at your Elkington photo's....at the end - via vertical hinging - his face is WIDE open. So...
Originally Posted by EC Dr. O,

I'm horning in late again, but how could anybody look at this picture and not see textbook hitting?
EC,
For those that don't know - EC is one of my mentors. One, among two, who took my under his wing. And, in my opinion, is a knowledgable and brilliant as anyone....especially when it comes too TGM. As a devil's advocate, I am compelled to give my take....

Originally Posted by EC Ball above feet,
Not relevant.

Originally Posted by EC club choked down to compensate and
Not relevant.
Originally Posted by EC angled hinged to hold the shot off the slope,
Swingers can do the same - see Tiger hitting a flop with vertical hinging.
Originally Posted by EC bent left arm (if it was pulling, it would be more extended),
Hmmm.....do we know the original lie? Situation?

Originally Posted by EC and of course the paddlewheel DRIVE out of the right forearm...it's a HIT!!!
I, and you, can get in the same position swinging, no????
Gentlemen,
I must disagree. I posted an entire motion - after what, 6 or 7 pages of reading that Appleby was a 'textbook' hitter. And here - I must disagree. I do not, and would not advocate, surmising that a player is a hitter or swinger based upon one photo.

Thats my stance and I am sticking by it. I realize I am the only one to stand up on this - and thats ok.....

Could I prove it in a court of law? No.

Thank God this isnt a court of law and its TGM.

-Patrick
Thom
Originally Posted by Thom Another indication of Appleby's hitting, are his waggles.
He'll bend and straighten his right elbow = driving the shaft.
Bommelum - didn't anyone notice
tongzilla
Ok Philly,

We can infer that it's more likely to be Hitting than Swinging, given the limited information we have.

I think that's a fair statement, no?
annikan skywalker
Philly..I know we're friends...You're entitled to your opinion...
MBCpro
Hey folks,

Stewie can give us clues, but only he really knows whether he is hitting or swinging. But isn't this fun and educational?
I believe Mr Kelley once stated he didn't like looking at swings because they all looked different, he was speaking about Nicklaus at the time and saw a swing and Mr. Kelley said he didn't think that was Jack's normal swing. We have no idea what any player is attempting do on the majority of the swings and pictures we see.

But as I said above it is great for educational purposes for the forum to discuss and debate all these great components and to hear everyone's educated opinions.

Keep up the great work!

Todd
YodasLuke
Originally Posted by MBCpro Hey folks,

Stewie can give us clues, but only he really knows whether he is hitting or swinging. But isn't this fun and educational?
I believe Mr Kelley once stated he didn't like looking at swings because they all looked different, he was speaking about Nicklaus at the time and saw a swing and Mr. Kelley said he didn't think that was Jack's normal swing. We have no idea what any player is attempting do on the majority of the swings and pictures we see.

But as I said above it is great for educational purposes for the forum to discuss and debate all these great components and to hear everyone's educated opinions.

Keep up the great work!

Todd
I think it's an amazing thing to have such a place where these types of conversations are possible. The Apple is obviously an amazing specimen for all of us to dissect. And, I think he has an immense amount of components that we'd all like to emulate. We can all agree that he's got something right.
YodasLuke
Originally Posted by Thom Another indication of Appleby's hitting, is his waggles.
He'll bend and straighten his right elbow = driving the shaft.
That's a TGM waggle if I've ever seen one. He's got the flying wedges as good as anyone.
EC
Originally Posted by phillygolf Annikan...

No disrespect, you'r my boy. But in all seriousness - if you, or anyone - can tell hitting via a posed shot at the end of the sequence, well.......

I dont agree.

Look back at your Elkington photo's....at the end - via vertical hinging - his face is WIDE open. So...

EC,
For those that don't know - EC is one of my mentors. One, among two, who took my under his wing. And, in my opinion, is a knowledgable and brilliant as anyone....especially when it comes too TGM. As a devil's advocate, I am compelled to give my take....


Not relevant.


Not relevant.

Swingers can do the same - see Tiger hitting a flop with vertical hinging.

Hmmm.....do we know the original lie? Situation?


I, and you, can get in the same position swinging, no????
Gentlemen,
I must disagree. I posted an entire motion - after what, 6 or 7 pages of reading that Appleby was a 'textbook' hitter. And here - I must disagree. I do not, and would not advocate, surmising that a player is a hitter or swinger based upon one photo.

Thats my stance and I am sticking by it. I realize I am the only one to stand up on this - and thats ok.....

Could I prove it in a court of law? No.

Thank God this isnt a court of law and its TGM.

-Patrick

Patrick,

S. Alito would have trouble supporting my argument, but I must confess that my conclusion came in the form of "connecting the dots", if you will. My computer looks at the situation at hand and spits out the best pattern with the most likely highest % of success based on having seen and performed this shot many, many times. Additionally, I have followed S.A. around Augusta's hilly terrain on more than one occassion, and I can tell you that his predominate pattern is hitting, whether he knows it or not. The components do not lie.

EC
phillygolf
Originally Posted by tongzilla Ok Philly,

We can infer that it's more likely to be Hitting than Swinging, given the limited information we have.

I think that's a fair statement, no?
Yes Sir...my only point (playing Devil's Advocate) is...perhaps, at times, he may be swinging.

Originally Posted by annikan skywalker Philly..I know we're friends...You're entitled to your opinion...
And my opinion....like others....is like.....

Originally Posted by EC Patrick,

S. Alito would have trouble supporting my argument, but I must confess that my conclusion came in the form of "connecting the dots", if you will. My computer looks at the situation at hand and spits out the best pattern with the most likely highest % of success based on having seen and performed this shot many, many times. Additionally, I have followed S.A. around Augusta's hilly terrain on more than one occassion, and I can tell you that his predominate pattern is hitting, whether he knows it or not. The components do not lie.

EC
EC,
I believe you mean J. (as in Judge) Alito. And I understand your point - and do not oppose it.


Gentlemen - please do not let my opposition stop this thread - there is much to be learned and gained from it.

As previously stated by one with much more intellegence than me: "It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it." -Joubert

EC
PC,

Samuel Alito...da judge.

EC
Trig
Take a look at some of the vid's of Yoda swinging vs. hiting. It's really hard to tell the difference UNLESS you know what to look for.

The only difference I see in Yoda's video's is when he's swinging his clubhead lags a bit during the startup. Other than that, I have a hard time telling the difference in his motion.
birdie_man
...it would be interesting to know whether he is Swinging or Hitting.....but the fact is that we may never know.

I think Homer said it's too tough to study playing professionals for this very reason...

...

How about we just settle on the fact that we don't know...

.....but we CAN learn from the mechanics (Geometry I mean) of his stroke....because they are sound (prolly moreso for a Hitter than a Swinger).