Shoulder(s) In Relation To Plane...

...hi all, I don't have my book w/me at work, so can't reference. But something just occured to me. Should the trail (r) shoulder move on plane (on the downswing)? If yes, doesn't that mean that the (r) shoulder would move more -how to describe this- sort of, "around" the body, so to speak, instead of say, "down" towards the ground and under the plane?

The Right Shoulder should move toward Impact on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane. If it can't quite reach that Plane, then it's better to use a steeper Plane.

In other words, the Right Shoulder moves On Plane -- downward, outward and forward.

Originally Posted by HoganFan ...hi all, I don't have my book w/me at work, so can't reference. But something just occured to me. Should the trail (r) shoulder move on plane (on the downswing)? If yes, doesn't that mean that the (r) shoulder would move more -how to describe this- sort of, "around" the body, so to speak, instead of say, "down" towards the ground and under the plane?

I know what you're talking about. In my swing, my right shoulder tends to move straight down. So when I got in front of a mirror to practice moving it down plane, it (the right shoulder) felt to me as if it were moving more forward than down. If you tend to get under plane with the shoulder, like me, then an on-plane right shoulder may feel like it's going more out and around. It's all about perception and perspective.

The sequence of Fred Couples posted by Annikan Skywalker shows nicely how the trail shoulder moves down the selected plane. See http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2010

Whether it feels more "around" than "down" depends on your tendencies. In my case, I need to "feel" it going down.

Originally Posted by Bigwill If you tend to get under plane with the shoulder, like me, then an on-plane right shoulder may feel like it's going more out and around. It's all about perception and perspective.

I think you hit the nail on the head for me, Bigwill.

Originally Posted by HoganFan ...hi all, I don't have my book w/me at work, so can't reference. But something just occured to me. Should the trail (r) shoulder move on plane (on the downswing)? If yes, doesn't that mean that the (r) shoulder would move more -how to describe this- sort of, "around" the body, so to speak, instead of say, "down" towards the ground and under the plane?

What the golf world has not realised so far is that the shoulder turns one way on the backstroke and another on the downstroke.

One pro told me before: "Keep it simple, loose grip, turn back and turn through and square up at impact." I was on the verge of telling him that if it were true, the average handicap should be 5 because that is what everyone is trying to do.

Per 10-13-A, the standard shoulder turn, this is a dual application of the Flat Backstroke (as flat as possible) and On Plane Downstroke Shoulder Turn.

The proper downstroke shoulder motion is facilitated by a hip slide which tilts the axis of the shoulders. Lets take a look at some references.

Per 2-L #2 "a rotating motion will pass through a given point if the axis is tilted properly..."

Per 7-14 "Not otherwise could the weight be shifted and the Shoulder Turn Axis be tilted without moving the head."...which maintains our first essential, the stationary head per 2-0-A-1.

Per 2-H "On Plane" Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by tilting its axis - the spine.

The above references highlight the downstroke shoulder motion as inseparable from a hip slide producing axis tilt.

Per 2-N-0 "There must be an Underhand Pitch motion and Feel. If there isn't you are "Roundhousing" - lifting the Hands (Flat Shoulder Turn) and / or the Clubhead (steering) "Off Line" during the Start Down. This includes the Butt of the Club also.

Per 2-L #2 "a rotating motion will pass through a given point if the axis is tilted properly..."

Per 7-13 "Keep that Right Shoulder not only "back" but also "down" (On Plane), or you will "run out out of Right Arm" before the Hands reach Impact Position - an automatic Throwaway."

These references highlight the true function of the shoulders as well as the importance of it.

Finally take a look at pictures 9-1-7 to 9-1-12.
Notice how Diane's right shoulder is working "under the left". Sure is different from what we have been told to turn back and through!

These references and the pictures by Annikan will unlock the mystery that surrounds 6-M-1 (Downstroke Sequence) for many. Too many folks start off in the proper sequence UNTIL they get to the shoulders part and then they spin out (around) instead of getting the right shoulder to move downplane which makes it go Down then Out and then Forward.

An offplane shoulder motion on the downstroke results in a roundhouse per 2-N-0 and violation of the 3rd imperative, a straight plane line per 2-0-B-3.

What was the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane in the Freddy sequence? How can the shoulder move down on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane unless that is the Turned Shoulder Plane? Say you were going to shift the sweetspot down from the Turned Shoulder Plane to the Elbow Plane, should your goal be to also shift the shoulder?

Originally Posted by Yoda Justin -- the Singapore Slinger -- is getting seriously good. Has anybody else noticed? Or is it just me?

Thank you for the gracious words..."and I press on toward the high calling..."

[quote=comdpa]What the golf world has not realised so far is that the shoulder turns one way on the backstroke and another on the downstroke.
Hi Compda
Thank you for this post . So I'm not the only one... Shoulders plane (s) is a problem for me for a long time and your post give me a new light.
If I stand up in front of a mirror my soulders line is (anatomically) perpendicular to my body axis (my spine ). If I pivot in this position my shoulders plane is perpendicular to my vertical axis (my spine ) and parallel to the ground. If I bend from my hips in front of me, the shoulders plane is still perpendicular to my spine and angled with the ground. If I start to pivot in this position ,around my spine and keeping my head as still as possible the only way to have the club (and arms ) and the shoulders on the same plane is to keep the arms perpendicular to the axis (wich is not very confortable...). So the shoulders and the club (and arms ) are travelling on differents planes in the backswing.
In the dowswing , if we want the right shoulder to go down to the ball , we need a steeper shoulders plane , which need to curve , or to bend , or to tilt the axis (as far as the head is still in place) Most of time it seems to me that for great players shifting and tilting allows this knew shoulders plane.


For me the downswing is more critical (maybe because the backswing pivot seems more "axial" and static), but I try to improve with the very competent help of all the fellows on this site wich is , by far , the best on the net.
Happy new year to you all , and thank you for reading
PM

[quote=Yoda]Thanks, Phimaynard. We do have a terrific crew here, and the site is growing by leaps and bounds. Membership has increased 80 percent in the past two months alone.

This growing is the fruit of your competence and the global spirit of the site (sharing the knowledge, Thanks Compda )
One good exemple is often better than a long argument : your post about Eklington (Steve Elkington's Wonderful Little TGM Stroke) is one of the best golf lesson I have ever had . I printed it and read it almost daily . It helps me to understand how to use the "Yellow book" in the right way. I know that I have still a lot to learn, so, like everybody in this growing community, I will continue to connect everyday, for my greatest pleasure
This is a little gift for you..
[IMG][/IMG]
Thanks
PM

Originally Posted by phimaynard This is a little gift for you..

PM

Such an awesome pic..WOW!

Originally Posted by phimaynard

Originally Posted by comdpa What the golf world has not realised so far is that the shoulder turns one way on the backstroke and another on the downstroke.

Hi Compda
Thank you for this post . So I'm not the only one... Shoulders plane (s) is a problem for me for a long time and your post give me a new light.

Merci...

If you were to reference again the Standard Shoulder Turn.

The backstroke would look like this - (as flat as possible)and the downstroke would look like this \ (right shoulder moves downplane)

What I have described is from a down-the-line view.

If shoulder turn on the backstroke and the downstroke "match", then (pray)...for disaster awaits...

Comdpa, finally had a free night to get in to my book, with your notes in hand. My head's spinning, quite honestly but here goes anyway.

Originally Posted by comdpa
The proper downstroke shoulder motion is facilitated by a hip slide which tilts the axis of the shoulders.

Can you point me in the (book's) direction of how much hip slide to employ?

Originally Posted by comdpa
[b]Per 2-N-0 "There must be an Underhand Pitch motion and Feel. If there isn't you are "Roundhousing"

"Underhand Pitch motion" is this what most golf teachers refer to as moving the shoulder "down the line?". That is, it feels as if the right shoulder is moving parallel to the target line? "Roundhousing". If I were to not begin with a hip slide, but simply (and incorrectly) just turn my tilted upper body towards the target--is this "roundhousing"?.

Originally Posted by comdpa
Too many folks start off in the proper sequence UNTIL they get to the shoulders part and then they spin out (around) instead of getting the right shoulder to move downplane which makes it go Down then Out and then Forward.

Okay, "Down" I get. Its the opposite of up. "Forward" I get--towards the target line. But "Out" cooks my noodle a bit. Out to which direction? Many thanks for any light you care to shed. I've sort of been waiting a few years for this site--and for folks like you who care enough to spend time fog-lifting for folks like me.

Originally Posted by HoganFan Comdpa, finally had a free night to get in to my book, with your notes in hand. My head's spinning, quite honestly but here goes anyway.

Can you point me in the (book's) direction of how much hip slide to employ?

"Underhand Pitch motion" is this what most golf teachers refer to as moving the shoulder "down the line?". That is, it feels as if the right shoulder is moving parallel to the target line? "Roundhousing". If I were to not begin with a hip slide, but simply (and incorrectly) just turn my tilted upper body towards the target--is this "roundhousing"?.

Okay, "Down" I get. Its the opposite of up. "Forward" I get--towards the target line. But "Out" cooks my noodle a bit. Out to which direction? Many thanks for any light you care to shed. I've sort of been waiting a few years for this site--and for folks like you who care enough to spend time fog-lifting for folks like me.

First off buddy,

HIP SLIDE - How much do I need?

Well, the answer is somewhere between too much and too little.
I am kidding...

Book out please...

To recap, why do we need the Hip Slide?

...for proper shoulder motion
Per 2-H ""On Plane" Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by tilting its axis - the spine."

...to prevent roundhousing
Per 10-5-0 "Round Housing in the effort to avoid Hip and Right Elbow collisions - in both directions."

Per 7-14 "...and so avoid Right Elbow and Hip interference and its "Roundhousing" Throwaway (4-D-0) during the Start Down."

...to harness Centrifugal Force
Per 2-L "Concerning #2 - a rotating motion will pass through a given point if the axis is tilted properly..."

How much to Slide?

Per 7-14 "Not otherwise could the weight be shifted and the Shoulder Turn Axis be tilted without moving the Head."

In summary, your slide is sufficient if it allows the hips to clear without moving the head. This is the Hula Hula Flexibility Mr Kelly speaks of.

What is Round Housing?

Roundhousing causes your shoulders to go over the downstroke plane which usually should be the Turned Shoulder Plane.

Per 7-13 "...you will "run out of Right Arm" before the Hands reach Impact Position - an automatic Throwaway (7-14, 8-6)"

Per 6-H-C "Take all Strokes to the Both Arms Straight Position (8-11)". If you are not able to execute this, it is a sure sign that you are roundhousing.

Simple drill to ingrain an "Underhand Pitch Feel"

1) Take a golf stance against a wall.
2) Place the left hand against the wall and lock it there.
3) Do your Right Forearm Takeaway.
4) Swing the Right Arm under the left.
5) Observe that your right shoulder is automatically under the left.

Your next question...what is Down, Out and Forward?

Per 2-C-0 "Your main lines of defense are the Flat Left Wrist, Hinge Action and a Three Dimensional Downstroke - that is, DOWNward (Attack Angle) AND OUTward (Plane Angle) AND FORward (Approach Angle)..."

To understand "DOWN"...Look at a swing sequence from a face on view. From the top, notice how the hands come DOWN to Impact Hand Location.

To understand "OUT"...Look at a swing sequence from a Down The Line perspective. From the top, notice how the hands move OUT to Impact Hand Location.

To understand "FORWARD"..Look at a swing sequence from an Overhead view. From the top again, notice how the hands move FORWARD to Impact Hand Location.

I appreciate that without pictures it is hard to understand the 3-D downstroke. If Annikan could illustrate 2-C-0, it would be great!

Fantasic, I can't thank you enough! Back to "nose in the book", will post when I come up for air.

Originally Posted by HoganFan Fantasic, I can't thank you enough! Back to "nose in the book", will post when I come up for air.

Hogan,

You are welcome and its always a pleasure...

Originally Posted by comdpa
First off buddy,

HIP SLIDE - How much do I need?

Well, the answer is somewhere between too much and too little.
I am kidding...

Book out please...

To recap, why do we need the Hip Slide?

...for proper shoulder motion
Per 2-H ""On Plane" Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by tilting its axis - the spine."

...to prevent roundhousing
Per 10-5-0 "Round Housing in the effort to avoid Hip and Right Elbow collisions - in both directions."

Per 7-14 "...and so avoid Right Elbow and Hip interference and its "Roundhousing" Throwaway (4-D-0) during the Start Down."

...to harness Centrifugal Force
Per 2-L "Concerning #2 - a rotating motion will pass through a given point if the axis is tilted properly..."

How much to Slide?

Per 7-14 "Not otherwise could the weight be shifted and the Shoulder Turn Axis be tilted without moving the Head."

In summary, your slide is sufficient if it allows the hips to clear without moving the head. This is the Hula Hula Flexibility Mr Kelly speaks of.

What is Round Housing?

Roundhousing causes your shoulders to go over the downstroke plane which usually should be the Turned Shoulder Plane.

Per 7-13 "...you will "run out of Right Arm" before the Hands reach Impact Position - an automatic Throwaway (7-14, 8-6)"

Per 6-H-C "Take all Strokes to the Both Arms Straight Position (8-11)". If you are not able to execute this, it is a sure sign that you are roundhousing.

Simple drill to ingrain an "Underhand Pitch Feel"

1) Take a golf stance against a wall.
2) Place the left hand against the wall and lock it there.
3) Do your Right Forearm Takeaway.
4) Swing the Right Arm under the left.
5) Observe that your right shoulder is automatically under the left.

Your next question...what is Down, Out and Forward?

Per 2-C-0 "Your main lines of defense are the Flat Left Wrist, Hinge Action and a Three Dimensional Downstroke - that is, DOWNward (Attack Angle) AND OUTward (Plane Angle) AND FORward (Approach Angle)..."

To understand "DOWN"...Look at a swing sequence from a face on view. From the top, notice how the hands come DOWN to Impact Hand Location.

To understand "OUT"...Look at a swing sequence from a Down The Line perspective. From the top, notice how the hands move OUT to Impact Hand Location.

To understand "FORWARD"..Look at a swing sequence from an Overhead view. From the top again, notice how the hands move FORWARD to Impact Hand Location.

I appreciate that without pictures it is hard to understand the 3-D downstroke. If Annikan could illustrate 2-C-0, it would be great!

This is my biggest problem hopefully i can get it fixed.

Originally Posted by jr33 This is my biggest problem hopefully i can get it fixed.

There is a Way, but are you WILLING...?

[quote=comdpa]

I appreciate that without pictures it is hard to understand the 3-D downstroke.

Maybe this is what you mean
Issued from Tiger's book "How I play golf" (Golf Digest Editions)
Comdpa, you really know what you are speaking about!!!
Merci

[quote=phimaynard]

Originally Posted by comdpa
I appreciate that without pictures it is hard to understand the 3-D downstroke.

Maybe this is what you mean
Issued from Tiger's book "How I play golf" (Golf Digest Editions)
Comdpa, you really know what you are speaking about!!!
Merci

Again, thanks for the kind words...you make me blush...

Fabulous pictures my friend...

The first row shows "down"....
The second row shows "out"...
The third row shows "forward"...

And they all collectively show us a 3-Dimensional Downstroke and the resultant 3-Dimensional Impact for a "truly well hit ball"

Per 2-B "A truly well hit Ball (Three Dimensional Impact 2-C-0)..."

I have read that the uncompensated, maximum support, stroke includes having the trail shoulder and forearm on the same plane as the shaft at impact, the Turned Shoulder Plane. Only, I can't see how that is possible without having a straight trail arm. Unless you only need the bottom edge of the shoulder to sit on the plane for it to be considered on the Turned Shoulder Plane, maybe that is the answer... From all the pics I've seen where the shaft is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at impact, either the trail shoulder or forearm are not on the TSP.

Comdpa, you've said that the trail shoulder should remain on plane in the Downstroke as long as it needs to. What are the determining factors?

Originally Posted by Yoda Out is toward the Plane Line.

Every bit of info helps unravel the knot...

Originally Posted by comdpa "preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane" simply means the clubshaft on which the player wants to utilise on the downstroke.

If you shift during the Downstroke, which plane is the preselected plane? Or, is there only ever a preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane in a zero shift Downstroke?

If the Turned Shoulder Plane is the angle from the the plane line up to the rear shoulder at the end of the Backstroke(no matter what type of Shoulder Turn took place), how can the rear shoulder move downplane at start down on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?

The "rear shoulder" and "rear forearm" can be in a straight line (with the clubshaft) if one bends the right ("rear) elbow in towards the right hip. It will appear in a straight line if viewed from a "down-the-line" perspective.

I can't picture this comdpa Are there any photos or diagrams that could clear this up for me?

Another question. For how long should the rear shoulder move downplane? I see many down the line sequences showing the rear shoulder moving above plane before impact, but few with it remaining on plane to both arms straight. What is ideal?

Originally Posted by nevermind If you shift during the Downstroke, which plane is the preselected plane? Or, is there only ever a preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane in a zero shift Downstroke?

Technically, using ANY plane, whether downstroke or backstroke, if one does not shift from one plane to another, then that means it is a "zero shift" stroke. A zero shift is not limited only to the downstroke.

If on the backstroke I elect to shift from an elbow plane to a turned shoulder plane then that is a shift.

Originally Posted by nevermind If the Turned Shoulder Plane is the angle from the the plane line up to the rear shoulder at the end of the Backstroke(no matter what type of Shoulder Turn took place), how can the rear shoulder move downplane at start down on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?

Sure it can. I merely have to switch planes. In fact, you will see that such shifts are pretty common on Tour. Usually you will see a move from the turned shoulder plane to the elbow plane. But remember the words of Mr Kelly here. Any plane shift is hazardous.

Originally Posted by nevermind I can't picture this comdpa Are there any photos or diagrams that could clear this up for me?

Another question. For how long should the rear shoulder move downplane? I see many down the line sequences showing the rear shoulder moving above plane before impact, but few with it remaining on plane to both arms straight. What is ideal?

As regards photos and diagrams, you may need to ask our resident imager Mr Annikan...

You may not like this answer, but the rear shoulder should move downplane as long as it needs to. As I observe in all my students, there is too much around as opposed to "down".

Originally Posted by comdpa Technically, using ANY plane, whether downstroke or backstroke, if one does not shift from one plane to another, then that means it is a "zero shift" stroke. A zero shift is not limited only to the downstroke.

If on the backstroke I elect to shift from an elbow plane to a turned shoulder plane then that is a shift.

Come on man, I knew that... so back to the question. If you make a shift in the downstroke, which plane is the preselected Downstroke CLubshaft Plane, that the shoulder should move precisely on? The plane your shifting from or to? Or is there no preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane if there are shifts in the downstroke?

Sure it can. I merely have to switch planes. In fact, you will see that such shifts are pretty common on Tour. Usually you will see a move from the turned shoulder plane to the elbow plane.

I'm going to assume your talking about the clubshaft here, coz I definitely can't picture the rear shoulder getting down to the elbow plane Should the rear shoulder make plane shifts during the Downstroke? If the rear shoulder is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at startdown, no matter what shoulder turn was used, how can it move downplane at startdown on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?

You may not like this answer, but the rear shoulder should move downplane as long as it needs to. As I observe in all my students, there is too much around as opposed to "down".

So how do I know how far I need to keep the shoulder on plane for? If it's an individual thing, I guess trial and error is the way to go? How do I know if my bad shots are due to not keeping the shoulder on plane far enough or something else?

I worked with Justin in July and he has helped
me with my pattern, and I always refer to the
videos that we made during lessons. Thanks to everyone at LBG,Manzella,Ben,Gregg and anybody involved spreading the word of TGM. I would have never been able to make sense of TGM without these great sites.

Originally Posted by nevermind Come on man, I knew that... so back to the question. If you make a shift in the downstroke, which plane is the preselected Downstroke CLubshaft Plane, that the shoulder should move precisely on? The plane your shifting from or to? Or is there no preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane if there are shifts in the downstroke?

I'm going to assume your talking about the clubshaft here, coz I definitely can't picture the rear shoulder getting down to the elbow plane Should the rear shoulder make plane shifts during the Downstroke? If the rear shoulder is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at startdown, no matter what shoulder turn was used, how can it move downplane at startdown on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?

So how do I know how far I need to keep the shoulder on plane for? If it's an individual thing, I guess trial and error is the way to go? How do I know if my bad shots are due to not keeping the shoulder on plane far enough or something else?

My apologies "nevermind"...

I read your question wrongly and thus came up with a wrong answer. We are on the wrong pages.

You were referencing "shoulders" only and I referenced at times "shoulders" and "clubshaft".

When I referred to "shifts" I was referring to "plane angle shifts". Per 10-6-B, "any Plane Angle Shift is very hazardous"

You are asking which "clubshaft plane" that the "shoulders" should move on.

Per 7-13 "When the Shoulder moves on the same Downstroke Plane as the Hands it provides its greatest support and its best guidance to the stroke."

This would be the "Turned Shoulder Plane" 10-6-B, "which has far better performance characteristics than any other".

And it may not be the answer you want.

Per 7-13, a tip-off to bad shots created by improper shoulder motion is the non-existence of a "followthrough" 8-11

Originally Posted by comdpa Per 7-13, a tip-off to bad shots created by improper shoulder motion is the non-existence of a "followthrough" 8-11

thanks compda

I might try a pm to Yoda for the other questions. I never seem to get anywhere on this topic

If you ever see an image showing the rear shoulder, forearm and clubshaft all on the same plane, during a normal golf shot and without a straight rear arm, please let me know . Push Elbow doesn't count

Originally Posted by nevermind thanks compda

I might try a pm to Yoda for the other questions. I never seem to get anywhere on this topic

If you ever see an image showing the rear shoulder, forearm and clubshaft all on the same plane, during a normal golf shot and without a straight rear arm, please let me know . Push Elbow doesn't count

Hi nevermind,

Please go see Chapter 9. Keep 2-R in mind as you study the pics.