Homer's two gifts... and two pivot centers

Talked to Lynn yesterday.

Here is what we are 100% in agreement on (very important)...

Homer Kelley gave us TWO very important gifts:

1. A SYSTEM that explains ALL methods.

&

2. Homer's preferences (method).

Two patterns that are as close to ideal as is possible, PLUS ideas like the tripod and right forearm pickup, that would allow you the best chance to perform these patterns.

IDEAL? What Homer meant by ideal was this: Best place to START for a hitter or a swinger, while also being MOST interchangeable. Also most GEOMETRICALLY sound. Not longest hitting or best performance (that would be the four-barrel pattern from the 3rd edition). Just two patterns that Homer felt COULD BE DONE BY MOST GOLFERS easily and THEN customize.

So, where does this leave us with our "pivot center" debate?

They are both in book.

Lynn allow for both but prefers one.

Brian teaches both.

A'int The Golfing Machine great??

Okay when all is said and done...??

I still have questions that have gone unanswered.

1. This 'Tripod' concept, where is it in the book (I obvously have missed it, bad Martee).

2. This 'Tripod' has been shown as a triangle on photos and diagrams. It is always or at least appears to be drawn as an isosceles triangle (2 sides of equal length, thus placing the apex in the center of the base). Is it really an isosceles triangle?

3. A 'Tripod' indicate 3 legs, where is the third leg? Bi-pod seems to be the percise and correct term or triangle.

4. How did it come about to state the center of the pivot center was to be in middle of the stance? Or was it to be between the two feet (not going to the outside, etc.)?

5. The neck as the pivot center, indicates that the head can move. Is the movement of the head restricted to
a. Rotation around this pivot center point (same as it is with a stationary head)?
b. Back and forth motion with the pivot center point stationary?
c. Side to side motion (Bending ear to shoulder) with the pivot center point stationary?
d. At not time should the head movement, of any kind, move the pivot center point?

6. The Determination of where the pivot center point for either the head or neck is, defined by Impact Fix?

7. In use of either reference points, movement of the pivot center from the Address position to Impact Fix is acceptable? Is it desireable? Is this something that is a personal trait or preferrence of the golfer or golf instructor?

8. The Pivot Center Point can be moved by the pivot and still be considered stationary?

It is difficult to see value in the neck over the head when it is not clear, at least to me, how the neck reference provides something that the head doesn't.

I stated earlier in another thread of some of the benefits of the stationary head
a. Balance factor
b. Visual reference

I am looking for the value, how both accomplish the same, and as you had pointed out in another thread how you have discovered that based on a certain observed characteristics (flight line to the right, etc.) that you select one over the other.

Thanks to all in advance for some replies.

I have re-written this post 4 times because I am not able to express what I feel inside needs to be said.

It would appear that the answers to Martee's questions are a major sticking point to any further TGM learning. The forum appears "stuck".

In my own case, someone needs to produce video that answers and demonstrates what everyone is trying to say. We don't need anything professional - garage video without train and traffic noise (like the last Tomasello videos)would suffice.

Some of us learn better with visuals, some need audio only. The written word has been overdone. Kill the other 2 learning styles with some video.

Originally Posted by Martee Okay when all is said and done...??

I still have questions that have gone unanswered.

1. This 'Tripod' concept, where is it in the book (I obvously have missed it, bad Martee).

2. This 'Tripod' has been shown as a triangle on photos and diagrams. It is always or at least appears to be drawn as an isosceles triangle (2 sides of equal length, thus placing the apex in the center of the base). Is it really an isosceles triangle?

3. A 'Tripod' indicate 3 legs, where is the third leg? Bi-pod seems to be the percise and correct term or triangle.

4. How did it come about to state the center of the pivot center was to be in middle of the stance? Or was it to be between the two feet (not going to the outside, etc.)?

5. The neck as the pivot center, indicates that the head can move. Is the movement of the head restricted to
a. Rotation around this pivot center point (same as it is with a stationary head)?
b. Back and forth motion with the pivot center point stationary?
c. Side to side motion (Bending ear to shoulder) with the pivot center point stationary?
d. At not time should the head movement, of any kind, move the pivot center point?

6. The Determination of where the pivot center point for either the head or neck is, defined by Impact Fix?

7. In use of either reference points, movement of the pivot center from the Address position to Impact Fix is acceptable? Is it desireable? Is this something that is a personal trait or preferrence of the golfer or golf instructor?

8. The Pivot Center Point can be moved by the pivot and still be considered stationary?

It is difficult to see value in the neck over the head when it is not clear, at least to me, how the neck reference provides something that the head doesn't.

I stated earlier in another thread of some of the benefits of the stationary head
a. Balance factor
b. Visual reference

I am looking for the value, how both accomplish the same, and as you had pointed out in another thread how you have discovered that based on a certain observed characteristics (flight line to the right, etc.) that you select one over the other.

Thanks to all in advance for some replies.

1. Hopefully, it's in the upcoming 7th edition. It's in Homer's notes.

2. It would seem to require a centered head, if it's an isosceles triangle.

3. This is a point that I made with Yoda about six months ago.

I've had the privilege of traveling with Yoda to many of our golf schools around the country. During some of the long flights, I have the opportunity to be grilled (interrogated) about TGM (which I love and requires the wearing of a seatbelt). The questions come a mile a minute. And additionally, I get the opportunity to watch Yoda make his notes about changes that need to be made in the book. I wish that Yoda had been consulted about changes that needed to be made, before the 7th edition hit the presses.

Off to some lessons...

Originally Posted by YodasLuke 1. Hopefully, it's in the upcoming 7th edition. It's in Homer's notes.

2. It would seem to require a centered head, if it's an isosceles triangle.

3. This is a point that I made with Yoda about six months ago.

I've had the privilege of traveling with Yoda to many of our golf schools around the country. During some of the long flights, I have the opportunity to be grilled (interrogated) about TGM (which I love and requires the wearing of a seatbelt). The questions come a mile a minute. And additionally, I get the opportunity to watch Yoda make his notes about changes that need to be made in the book. I wish that Yoda had been consulted about changes that needed to be made, before the 7th edition hit the presses.

Off to some lessons...

Thanks for the insight.

Well unless someone can describe and show this tripod, I hope it didn't make it into the next edition. Without ample text and/or diagram(s), this will be something every anti-TGMer grabs onto and makes a big deal.

Wonder if Homer had a definition in the glossary for this? The current definition of Pivot Center doesn't support this concept.

Thanks again, awaiting answers...

Originally Posted by Martee 3. A 'Tripod' indicate 3 legs, where is the third leg? Bi-pod seems to be the percise and correct term or triangle.

Dear Martee,

I believe the answer to your question can be found in the 1-L sketch.

The stationary post is the player's head.

If we can imagine now, a stake driven through our head and back (spine)right into the ground, then that is the stationary post in the drawing....which incidentally promotes a stationary head per 2-0-A-1.

Why the stake driven through the head and the spine?

Per 7-9 "...with the back straight from the neck down - not rounded at the waist. It is easier to control the rotation of a straight rod than a bent one."

Add our two legs and voila...that is the tripod.

Originally Posted by comdpa Dear Martee,

I believe the answer to your question can be found in the 1-L sketch.

The stationary post is the player's head.

If we can imagine now, a stake driven through our head right into the ground, then that is the stationary post in the drawing....

Add our two legs and voila...that is the tripod.

Sorry, and no disrespect, but this is a canned answer in general.

I understand the 1-L-1 along with other reference regarding the stationary post as well as the reference 2-H that states that it is not mandatory.

If in fact what you describe as the Tripod and this imaginary line is the thrid leg, I would submit
a. This doesn't by definition mean it is in the center
b. If it does mean center then we are talking two legs being equal to for an isoscele triangle, which would then place the apex in the center creating two rt triangles when a line is extended from the apex to the base.
c. Tripod gives the indication of 3 supporting points required. Having the third point lie between the other two doesn't meet the criteria for a tripod.

The really strange thing to me is that this would mandate a position vs an alignment.

Originally Posted by Yoda With his words "precisely between the feet," I believe Homer was talking about a face-on view, not down-the-line. The Waist Bend locates the Head outside the vertical plane of the Feet. The hinge pin through the Head to the ground would establish the "three supporting points" you mention.

My own 'Isoceles Triangle' concept uses the triangle as the geometric figure describing the relationship of the centered Head to the Feet. It is not a graphic representation of the Tripod itself.

If I am visualizing this correctly, the hinge pin throug the head, nah, I am not.

What I was visualizing was the the hinge pin from the head down through the spine. This can't be cause the hip motion (shifting and possible turning) would move that line, saying it started in the center, it certainly would be their at impact.

Maybe the Hogan concept is more accurate and in line with what Homer was leaning too. After all Hogan didn't say it had to support weight, merely make contact with the ground.

I think the last statement is important because I gathered a number of readers were seeing the triangle as the tripod. A sidenote, one of the pictures in one of the thread on this topic that was using the triangle, failed to take into account the slope or camera angle and cause the apex of the triangle to be placed outside the head. I am still working through this with the triangle and effect the stance width has on it with regards to its relationship to the ball position. Also this would seem to define a limit or a check point for when the hip slide goes beyond a certain point as it would move the apex cause of the shortening of the right side and axis tilt.

Still very rough..

So the visualization I should have would be
a. A line from the left foot/leg to the base of the skull
b. A line from the right foot/leg to the base of the skull
c. A line from the base of the skull ???? (This is the hinge, it rotates around the spine, so does it follow the spine?)

Sorry for being so dense on this and a pain...

Edited



L1, L2 or L3(The Hogan Concept)? or should I toss this and start all over again in search of the third leg?

Originally Posted by Martee Sorry, and no disrespect, but this is a canned answer in general.

No worries Martee, I make no apologies for the "canned answer". In fact, I take that as a compliment as I strive not to go outside of the book for answers.

I also realise that I am not the sum total of knowledge and I always look forward to correction...good golfing!

This 'up from ground hinge pin' could easily be through the base of the neck.

Another factor is whether or not the head will wind up 'behind the ball,' something else Homer thought should happen.

Originally Posted by Yoda Homer Kelley introduced the Pivot Swing Center Tripod concept in his additions to the as-yet-unpublished 7th edition. Previous editions had only the photo sequences of 9-1 and 9-2 where a white reference marker was placed behind the head to show its centered location.

I quoted that concept a few days ago in the Forum TGM Advanced and the thread 9-1-5...Pics, my post #143. Here it is again:

"The important thing is that the true Swing Center -- for all components -- is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationary Head and the other in the ground precisely between the Feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time."

So, the top of the Tripod is the Stationary Head and the base consists of the two Feet and the centered Hinge Pin falling precisely between them.

Thanks, need to look at those notes, it has been a long time.

So the answer to #1 is that this is in the upcoming edition (ted indicated such).

The definition or descriptive text doesn't meet the definition of a tripod (a three legged support). Any attempt to use a line down to the base line (line between the feet) is not a leg but bisecting line (three is a name for this, I can't recall) which divides the base line into two equal segments. Now if this bisecting line forms two rt triangles on the base, then this is an isoscele triangle, otherwise it is just a non right triangle. There is no requirement that I know of that would make this an isosceles triangle, since you can bend the knees, spread the feet, all of which will move the apex, the pivot center and change the length of lines between the feet to the apex.

The defintion or descriptive text does define the pivot center to between the feet, in the middle.

This being defined to be percisely between the feet, well it is troublesome, it seems to me that ball position, feet separation, etc all seem to take on more a standard position based on this defintion.

Did Homer update or change the glossary to add some words to explain this 'tripod'?

This is confusing, Homer did what I thought was a great job on explaining and showing the 'Triangle Assembly', I would think that this would merit the same level of detail.

great discussion guys. this is going to the cusp of the problems i feel are associated with the golfing machine models. specifically with the axis is rotation of the shoulders turn component and its relationship to the ball location and the the corressponding axis tilt. all the best

We've had a lot of discussion about what Brian and Lynn teach or prefer and what Homer wrote about regarding the 2 pivot centers.

I really need someone to explain and show me the difference between the base of the neck or the head being the centers of the pivot.

I kind of get the "head" - everything turns below it while the head remains stationary.

I don't get the "base of neck". My head is attached to the base of the neck and I don't know how to seperate them, I'm not convinced it can be done physically.

I'm assuming we are simply talking about a "feel" here and not a true physical difference in the two pivots. If there is a true difference then I'd like to see it.

Originally Posted by Trig We've had a lot of discussion about what Brian and Lynn teach or prefer and what Homer wrote about regarding the 2 pivot centers.

I really need someone to explain and show me the difference between the base of the neck or the head being the centers of the pivot.

I kind of get the "head" - everything turns below it while the head remains stationary.

I don't get the "base of neck". My head is attached to the base of the neck and I don't know how to seperate them, I'm not convinced it can be done physically.

I'm assuming we are simply talking about a "feel" here and not a true physical difference in the two pivots. If there is a true difference then I'd like to see it.

You are asking some of the same questions I have. That is why I asked about movement regarding the head when neck is used, etc.

Right now Yoda has me digging on this tripod concept.

I was hoping Brian would come in and answer the questions I asked regarding the neck as the stationary pivot center.

Maybe you will have better luck.

Originally Posted by Martee You are asking some of the same questions I have. That is why I asked about movement regarding the head when neck is used, etc.

Right now Yoda has me digging on this tripod concept.

I was hoping Brian would come in and answer the questions I asked regarding the neck as the stationary pivot center.

Maybe you will have better luck.

I am in West Palm Beach, Florida doing a privtae school.

I will post VIDEO of this on Monday night.