The Real Clubhead Lag!

People say Sergio has lots of Lag. That's Accumulator #2 Lag they are usually referring to. The angle between left arm and clubshaft is what they see.

But TGMers know that Clubhead Lag is the resistance of the Sweetspot to change direction, which is established during Start Down. It is very slight, very ellusive and hard to see.

But it's not hard to see in this case!



Now THAT'S Clubhead Lag!

You may say he's using some women's whippy shaft. Uhh....no. It's XXX

Originally Posted by tongzilla People say Sergio has lots of Lag. That's Accumulator #2 Lag they are usually referring to. The angle between left arm and clubshaft is what they see.

But TGMers know that Clubhead Lag is the resistance of the Sweetspot to change direction, which is established during Start Down. It is very slight, very ellusive and hard to see.

But it's not hard to see in this case!



Now THAT'S Clubhead Lag!

You may say he's using some women's whippy shaft. Uhh....no. It's XXX

Nice pic there Tong...Bobby was the one that got me started in TGM - despite those cheesy ads from OHP.

Per 6-C-2-A "The Clubshaft is stressed by the weight of the Clubhead resisting a change in its direction or velocity - which is Acceleration....Change of direction bends it during Longitudinal Acceleration (10-19-C)..."

Per 6-C-2-C "The prestressed Clubshaft will resist the added weight of the ball during Impact..."

1/16 inch of bend adds 1 ounce of mass.

Per 2-M-1 "Power is the total effective force impinged on the ball."

Per 2-C-0 "The Ball leaves the Clubface with force proportional to the compression produced by Impact."

Power is 1/2 x Mass x Velocity squared.

When you load the shaft, mass is added.
When mass is increased, power is increased.
When power is increased, the "total effective force impinged on the ball" increases, the FURTHER the ball flies if all things remain the same.

That dam tape is the same reason i got hooked on TGM also. Some times its a curse but I know its the truth though after hearing Bobby's impact. One day I will have that sound

I can verify that Schaeffer's shafts are xxx in that picture. Bobby can also hit lots of different shots including soft pitches, punches and partial speed shots.
He really should have made the tour. Gregg was just as good as a young man and even now. Lucky for us students that they became teachers.
We'll be in Australia for our golf schools starting this weekend.

Originally Posted by tongzilla

The definition of 'on plane force' and 'loading and supporting at 90 degrees'.

So what use is clubshaft lag like this (by the way I think the magnitude of the bend "observed" here is a aperture speed issue) if the shaft is bent toe up? Does anyone think this is useful in transfering power to the ball? If so how?

Golfie

Originally Posted by Golfie McG So what use is clubshaft lag like this (by the way I think the magnitude of the bend "observed" here is a aperture speed issue) if the shaft is bent toe up? Does anyone think this is useful in transfering power to the ball? If so how?

Golfie

Per 2-E "Notice this - the ball acquires only 70% of the Clubhead "approach" speed (so there must be speed) but 100% of the Clubhead "separation" speed (so there must be resistance to deceleration)...Prestress (Acceleration) stiffen the Clubshaft for consistent (minimum to maximum) resistance to Impact Deceleration."

By loading the shaft, you "prestress" it, making it less susceptible to deceleration during impact.

Why is that needful?

Because ball speed is dependent on two factors; Clubhead approach speed and Clubhead separation speed.

The more loaded the shaft, the more it resists deceleration because of a greater Moment of Inertia, hence increasing the second contributing factor to ball speed - separation speed.

With high approach speed and high separation speed, we will get high ball speed ceteris paribus which translates into "big" shots!

Hope that helped.

Originally Posted by Golfie McG So what use is clubshaft lag like this (by the way I think the magnitude of the bend "observed" here is a aperture speed issue) if the shaft is bent toe up? Does anyone think this is useful in transfering power to the ball? If so how?

Golfie

Some differents vues of Bobby's swing . The bent is not an aperture speed issue.
The saft is stressed at the top and the player (not me , alas...) keep this stress till impact
Is it usefull: YES
How: by adding this "stocked energy" during impact. Read Compda...
PM

Compda,

Thank you for the by the book answer.

Please take a harder look at the diection of the supposed bend in this shaft and tell me if you think this will increase clubspeed. The shaft is bent so that it is toe up, is it not?

Golfie

Originally Posted by phimaynard Some differents vues of Bobby's swing . The bent is not an aperture speed issue.
The saft is stressed at the top and the player (not me , alas...) keep this stress till impact
Is it usefull: YES
How: by adding this "stocked energy" during impact. Read Compda...
PM

Hi phimaynard,

How did you get the frame by frame? Screen shots?

The bend you see here is shutter speed issue. You would not see anywhere near this bend with high speed photography.

Has anyone visited a ShaftLab equipped facility? If so has anyone recorded a driver swing that had a lagging clubshaft prior to impact and a clubhead speed greater than 110 mph? My local guy at the Golftown mega store says he has not seen one. Mind you they've only had the gear for 6 months.

Golfie

Originally Posted by comdpa Per 2-E "Notice this - the ball acquires only 70% of the Clubhead "approach" speed (so there must be speed) but 100% of the Clubhead "separation" speed (so there must be resistance to deceleration)...Prestress (Acceleration) stiffen the Clubshaft for consistent (minimum to maximum) resistance to Impact Deceleration."

Although Sergio's prestressed shaft looks (and is) impressive and probably helps increase ball speed, it doesn't happen tha way it's indicated in a few of the posts here. The prestress that we see on these pictures is more or less completely unloaded a long time before impact. And it's probably reloaded and unloaded a second time before impact. Shaft loading profile depends on swing technique. See this link. The first graph that appears has to loading bursts and is the most typical loading and unloading pattern:

http://www.truetemper.com/shaftlab/profile.html

Please also note that the shaft is completely unloaded at impact. Only centrifugal acceleration and mass velocity is at work, and the toe of the club is pointing down. Don't underestimate the power of centrifugal force regarding impact deceleration resistance!

The prestressing of course happens because active torq is applied. The torque causes a clubshaft bend that has a similar effect as an increased wrist cock. That in itself will contribute to increased swing speed.

Back to the pictures of Sergio: With the same swing and even stiffer shaft, the torque in the wrist cock would increase because the shaft wouldn't bend as much. That torque increase would in fact lead to reduced swing speed - as in clubhead throw away. As a general rule, big wrist cock (with a help of shaft bend) early in the swing will produce increased swing speed. Torque might increase swing speed if it is applied very late in the swing (as for hitters?)but that has no relation to what we are seing in this pictures.

Guys,

I don't want anyone to feel bad they don't observe the same degree of bend that Bobby "demonstrates" here. You too can have it if you can find a camera with a 100th of a second shutter speed.

It would probably be detrimental to your game if you tried (with a better camera)

Golfie

Originally Posted by Golfie McG Hi phimaynard,

How did you get the frame by frame? Screen shots?

The bend you see here is shutter speed issue. You would not see anywhere near this bend with high speed photography.

Golfie

Hi Golfie
You are true .
These are screen shots and the DEGREE of bent is shutter speed issue.
My purpose was about KEEPING the lag from top to impact and these photos, for me , seems to illustrate that Bobby is doing it pretty well.
Friendly
PM

Originally Posted by tongzilla People say Sergio has lots of Lag. That's Accumulator #2 Lag they are usually referring to. The angle between left arm and clubshaft is what they see.

But TGMers know that Clubhead Lag is the resistance of the Sweetspot to change direction, which is established during Start Down. It is very slight, very ellusive and hard to see.

But it's not hard to see in this case!



Now THAT'S Clubhead Lag!




You may say he's using some women's whippy shaft. Uhh....no. It's XXX

Now someone draw a straight line from the #3PP to the CG of the Clubhead...then you'll really capture it!!!!

Originally Posted by tongzilla People say Sergio has lots of Lag. That's Accumulator #2 Lag they are usually referring to. The angle between left arm and clubshaft is what they see.

But TGMers know that Clubhead Lag is the resistance of the Sweetspot to change direction, which is established during Start Down. It is very slight, very ellusive and hard to see.

But it's not hard to see in this case!



Now THAT'S Clubhead Lag!

You may say he's using some women's whippy shaft. Uhh....no. It's XXX

Now someone draw a straight line from the #3PP to the CG of the Clubhead...then you'll really capture it!!!!

Originally Posted by annikan skywalker Now someone draw a straight line from the #3PP to the CG of the Clubhead...then you'll really capture it!!!!

Yes Sir, your wish is my command!

In his book (How I play golf, Golf Digest editions) Tiger explain that they have had to use a special camera (65 frames per second) .
So, these are not screen shots and it seems that the shaft is bendind
Anyway, we are not on a photography site. But Clubead Lag is the "Secret of golf" , and sometimes pictures may be a good complement to assimilate knowledge.

Hijacking my own thread, but check out that tripod, or lack thereof. His head is over his right foot (as opposed to the middle, according to the tripod concept)! The camera angle can make things look worse, but...

Originally Posted by Yoda Does phimaynard have an Impact photo in this sequence? If so, could we also see the Ball Location?

LYNN:

http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/...profil1234.jpg
http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/...er_dos1234.jpg
http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/...r_face1234.jpg
http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/...dessus1234.jpg

BTW Lynn,

Could you elaborate on this? (the bold part):

"At this point in the Stroke, El Tigre appears to be leaning backwards -- his right ear is outside his right foot -- in an attempt to hit 'up' through Impact. This could well be the case if his intention was to minimize the Compression Leakage of Backspin (and its quid pro quo...control)."

Originally Posted by birdie_man LYNN:

http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/...profil1234.jpg
http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/...er_dos1234.jpg
http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/...r_face1234.jpg
http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/...dessus1234.jpg

Hi Birdie
I see that you ave a taste for good sites
French golf sites are not a lot and ASA is a funny site for planes and golf fans
Have a look to "photomontages". Some funny pictures

Amitiés...
Pm

Originally Posted by phimaynard
In his book (How I play golf, Golf Digest editions) Tiger explain that they have had to use a special camera (65 frames per second) .
So, these are not screen shots and it seems that the shaft is bendind
Anyway, we are not on a photography site. But Clubead Lag is the "Secret of golf" , and sometimes pictures may be a good complement to assimilate knowledge.

Thanks for the pics, now that's a more reasonable amount of clubshaft lag. Though it's really not frames/sec that causes distortion - it's shutter speed (how long the shutter is open).

Do you think that the direction in bend that Tigers picture show will be useful per 6-C-2-C given that the clubshaft will rotate 90 degrees before imnpact

Thank you for the Homer quote as well.

Golfie

wheres Compdas imitation of shaeffers swing?

Golfie McG wrote...

While I do not know the book backwards and forwards. I would suggest 6-C-2-C as the paragraph you seek. Am I wrong to assume that Homer wishes to deliver a clubshaft that is stressed backward?

2-M-1 last sentence or two adds to the description.

Interesting is that the deflection of the clubshaft in the pictures shown is in fact the opposite (for the most part) that of the direction of clubhead droop.

Backwards would be the deflection at impact that is desired. It was once or maybe still is stated that this backward deflection would be timed to release at impact, adding to the ball's velocity. This is not an accurate concept for practical application nor is it what Homer has suggested.

Tongzilla intial post has really left eveyone hanging. How does the flexing, stressing the clubshaft in the direction shown in the picture (effectively bending the shaft so the toe would move upward) while PP#3 is on the aft of the shaft, 90* out of line with this movement?


I would respectifully submit that the clubshaft stress in these pictures are not 'clubhead lag' and this is something that is more common for a swinger than a hitter to experience.

Also I believe on reason Homer suggested using the stiffest shaft possible was to over come this phenomenon, which can lead to inconsistencies.

I should add..

This phenomenon that is shown is the change is direction at the top or end of the swing to the start down. The acceleration would be proportional to the shaft flex and force applied. The longer into the downstroke the acceleration continues to increase the more the shaft will be stressed. As the acceleration levels off the prestress will decrease.

Originally Posted by powerdraw wheres Compdas imitation of shaeffers swing?

Coming soon to blakebuster for all your rental needs.

Originally Posted by powerdraw wheres Compdas imitation of shaeffers swing?

Shh....!!!