Courtesy of VJ
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V.J.
Terrific visuals and visual descriptions. I gather your preferred stroke is on the shoulder plane.
What lie angle does your putting arc have?
What is your preferred ball position? Just short of low point?
Do you have any empirical data on the ascending v/s descending debate?
What kind of tempo do you like and why?
Regards,
If you could post some comments for the pics that would be very helpful.
looks forward to this
Picture #1- There is a lot of discussion concerning the plane angles the putter moves on. The most mis-conceived notion is that during a "shoulder only" motion the putter will move on the shaft plane. This is JUST NOT TRUE. If indeed the shoulders (left shoulder plane angle) are the ONLY moving part during the stroke putter will move in a plane which goes through the THORASIC REGION of the spine.
Moving the putter along a bench with an arm only stroke and then with a shoulder only stroke will both trace a straight plane line, however, the arc of approach and arc of separation will be different. There will be more arc in the arm only stroke than in the shoulder only stroke. The reason is because of the projection of the plane on the ground. The flatter-the more the arc- the more upright the less the arc.
I hope this image clears some of the fog!
How much does the anatomy of the golfer change the arc?
What stroke and golfer size are the Putting Arc constructed out from?
Are you saying that we're better off with a putter-training device that are more like the bench, if we want a device that people with diffent strokes and/or body-builds can use
The anatomy of a golfer changes the arc only by thousands of inches. NOW THE ANATOMY OF A GOLFER that sets up to the ball with eyes 8 to 10 inches inside the ball would change the arc considerably. Over the past 4 years we have made 5 custom arcs for variuos people. We have taken the measurements of hundreds of golfers but the difference in their arc isn't enough to matter.
Would you be better off with a bench? No. But if you were not going to use anything else, I would go for the bench. Plane boards are good, the putting arc is good, etc......The major reason we post the pics is for PRECISION. There is maybe more here than you need or can ever use.....but precision is precision.
Simply go this way. Decide on Shoulder Only or Right Arm Only. Then get a device to help you build a visual equivalent of these plane angles. Happy Planar Putting.
Picture #2
This is the only way a golfer can go straight back and through. Oooooopppppps....I lied. A player can get their pivot point (upper spine, right elbow) directly over the ball or they can MANIPULATE the putter head to death off plane.
For all the straight back and throughers out there just remember your putter better be short and you had better be bent over.
VJ,what is the significance of pics #3&4?
Can a golfer actually putt hook or slice spin on a putt, i.e. the ball is actually spinning across the green with sidespin, or do they all end up rolling over and over? I have heard different things on this... like this glancing blow only takes off power, due to it not being a centered strike. Others say the ball is actually side-spinning along the ground. Maybe this is a factor more with very short putts... causing more spin-outs.
Shifting Perspectives:
Take a look again at the two pictures showing the 'centers' - the left shoulder, and the base of neck/top of spine.
Notice that these are both from a face on perspective, with all lines running parallel (feet, knees, hips, shoulders).
Can you imagine a way in which BOTH of these sets of pictures would be true, depending on your point of view?
This is one of the reasons I personally love the putting setups of Ben Crenshaw and Greg Norman.
They set their feet about 45 degrees 'open' and close together.
They stand fairly tall, arms hanging with the 'shoulder line' square to the intended target. Left arm in line with the shaft.
When you look at them 'face on' (perpendicular to their shoulder line) - you will see one of the two perspectives VJ posted.
When you look at them 'foot on' (perpendicular to their foot line) - you will see the other perspective VJ has posted.
Both views can be seen - depending on your perspective.
Note that this open foot line is beneficial in two important ways. 1) it will help you get your eyes 'on plane' and 2) it will help you feel the right hand 'underhanded' toss motion.
You have the option of using a shoulder powered stroke, or a right arm powered stroke from this setup.
The caveat of course is that special attention must be paid to your shoulder alignment - something that is true for all shots, but made more difficult by the open foot line.
Thanks V.J,
The light bulb just went on with regard to a couple of things, so thank you. I work closely with Geoff Mangum, but it is extremely beneficial to get your(and others) perspective on tilted plane approaches, and the understanding gleaned therein.
Is there one 'dynamic' loft we should be striving for?
Ed,
I'm interested as to how the eyes will be more on plane because of an open stance. I understand that there is some argument with lead eye dominance.
Originally Posted by Homerson
Thanks V.J,
The light bulb just went on with regard to a couple of things, so thank you. I work closely with Geoff Mangum, but it is extremely beneficial to get your(and others) perspective on tilted plane approaches, and the understanding gleaned therein.
Is there one 'dynamic' loft we should be striving for?
Ed,
I'm interested as to how the eyes will be more on plane because of an open stance. I understand that there is some argument with lead eye dominance.
I can only speak for my own experience on the eye alignment, however I find that when I stand in a traditional 'square' alignment, my eyeline tends to tilt out to the right by about 45 degrees. I am 'very' left eye dominant, which as you point out, could be a key reason for this. Also, I think the open alginment helps you see distances better, because you can use more of a 'both eye' view during your routine. Snead putted with a side saddle approach in part because of this benefit (and of course, the 'straight on' stroke you can use). I'll leave the technical bits to those that know more about vision however.
"This involves the Angles of Approach (2-J-3) established by the LEFT-SHOULDER-TO-BALL relationship of the Lever Assemblies."
"If the Ball is struck before Low Point with an upstroke Motion (most obvious with the Putter) disrupting the Clubhead Orbit and the Hinging, then the Ball and the Clubhead Path become circles "exterior" to each other (like two meshing gears)and the line of Compression rotates away and produces a no-spin floater, or Lob Shot. The circle of the ball must be "interior" to the circle of the Clubface orbit and as immoveable as in a spinning centrifuge."
Basing ball positioning off the feet is dangerous, haphazard, and confusing. There is no allowance of a stance which allows for a player to have two seperate low points while using the same stroke. THERE IS NO LOW POINT OF THE FEET.
If it makes us aim better, rock on!!!!! But don't confuse it with low point.
PS- Now we need Lynn to tell us what "circles exterior" to each other are. GO LYNN GO!!!!
In pics 3 and 4 the head is in a different position, centered for the shoulder stroke and tiltted in the arm stroke. SHould these be different? Can you center the head for arms only?
Bgolfing,
The head should/can be centered in both strokes. Sorry if you see any distortions from that "sameness."
VJ - I have noticed that many more players have the toe slightly off the ground (as opposed to the heel). If there is an error in the lie angle of a putter, is it better to have it slightly more upright than down? How important is it to have the lie precisely right?
Thanks - Bruce
Dealing with aim.....the lie angle of the putter is the utmost of importance. Having the toe up will result in left aim...having the heel up will result in right aim. That is...until the computer compensates for it either in aim or stroke path or hinging or.......all three or.......none at all.
To answer the question: Get the putter sitting level!
Thanks VJ - Bruce
