Why must a hitter angle hinge and others?

There a basic set of criteria which generally are defined by homer to be characteristics of hitters yet there have been cases where somebody does not fit this criteria. For example kenny perry is considered to be a hitter yet he bends his left arm and goes to parallel with the club. Also I have no doubts he can horizontal hinge and draw the ball if he wants.

Thus what physical limitations geometric or otherwise make angled hinging a requirement for hitting versus horizontal. Why can't you take the club all the way back if you need the time for change of direction etc.

Are we just getting a defintion that arbitrally homer defined for hitting or like anything else there are the desirables patterns and the anomolies which work better to certain indivuals.

Dave

Originally Posted by davel There a basic set of criteria which generally are defined by homer to be characteristics of hitters yet there have been cases where somebody does not fit this criteria. For example kenny perry is considered to be a hitter yet he bends his left arm and goes to parallel with the club. Also I have no doubts he can horizontal hinge and draw the ball if he wants.

Thus what physical limitations geometric or otherwise make angled hinging a requirement for hitting versus horizontal. Why can't you take the club all the way back if you need the time for change of direction etc.

Are we just getting a defintion that arbitrally homer defined for hitting or like anything else there are the desirables patterns and the anomolies which work better to certain indivuals.

Dave

Basically the reason for angled hinging is very much in the participation of the right arm - no.1 accumulator. If your doing it right, the driving right arm automatically tends the hitting procedure towards angled hinging.

Whilst hinge action and how you create angular motion (hitting and swinging) are infact seperate entities. The paddlewheel motion of the right arm tends the hitting procedure towards angled hinging yet the reliance on centrifugal force tends the swinging procedure towards horizontal hinging. Its all to do with the participation of the right arm during the stroke - active or passive. If it is active you are hitting, passive swinging.

Originally Posted by Mathew Basically the reason for angled hinging is very much in the participation of the right arm - no.1 accumulator. If your doing it right, the driving right arm automatically tends the hitting procedure towards angled hinging.

Whilst hinge action and how you create angular motion (hitting and swinging) are infact seperate entities. The paddlewheel motion of the right arm tends the hitting procedure towards angled hinging yet the reliance on centrifugal force tends the swinging procedure towards horizontal hinging. Its all to do with the participation of the right arm during the stroke - active or passive. If it is active you are hitting, passive swinging.

I understand what you are saying. But the point I am making if the hingeing action is truly independent of the angular motion I physically should be able to have a horizontal hinge and since it is not a desirable pattern what potential error does it cost?

I guess I am trying to figure out a mixed hitting swinging procedure which conforms to my physical capabilites(have a handicap) and is closer to my previous swinging procedure.

Dave

A true hitter can use horizontal hinging....in fact, in the third edition of TGM, Homer had a 3 barrel hitting stroke that used horizontal hinging (10-10-D)....standard wrist action (10-18-A), punch basic right arm motion (10-3-A), top assembly (10-21-A) point, right arm trigger (10-20-B).

Remember, to achieve angled hinging it's a manipulated move per 7-19-1. For horizontal hinging...let the left wrist turn naturally.....for both procedures one must use a right arm punching motion...you must become an expert at executing 10-3-A.

If I was a true hitter, I would use horizontal hinging for getting out of trouble... for instance, getting around a tree when a major draw or hook is required.

DG

Originally Posted by davel I understand what you are saying. But the point I am making if the hingeing action is truly independent of the angular motion I physically should be able to have a horizontal hinge and since it is not a desirable pattern what potential error does it cost?

I guess I am trying to figure out a mixed hitting swinging procedure which conforms to my physical capabilites(have a handicap) and is closer to my previous swinging procedure.

Dave

A key difference is rotation, and the orientation of the shaft to the loading.

When you swing, you are loading the left wrist due to two primary factors, a startup swivel (rotation onto the plane) and going to 'end' (loading in the plane of the left wrist cock and getting 'under' the shaft)

When you hit, you are loading the right elbow with effectively no real rotation so rather than load against the 'top' of the shaft as in swinging, you are loading more on the 'side' of the shaft. A 90 degree difference - always loading the shaft at 90 degrees to the direction of the loading force in either case.

When you use a horizontal hinge 'hit' you aren't using the full benefits of CF and you are 'forced' to time the squaring of the clubface manually. In other words, since you didn't allow the rotation back, you must 'make' it happen coming through, which is an inconsistent way to play.

As combinations go, loading for hitting and then horizontal hinging isn't the worst, because it does make it easier to hit a draw. The question is the ability to control just how much draw.

The opposite case, loading for swinging and then angled hinging, is an easy way to hit a fade, and again, the question is the ability to control just how much fade.

The force vectors just are less compatible than for a 'straight' ball. As long as you understand the shot shapes that naturally result from each, you can play effectively with any combination. I suspect this is why Homer stated that hinge action does not differentiate hitting and swinging.

Originally Posted by EdZ A key difference is rotation, and the orientation of the shaft to the loading.

When you swing, you are loading the left wrist due to two primary factors, a startup swivel (rotation onto the plane) and going to 'end' (loading in the plane of the left wrist cock and getting 'under' the shaft)

When you hit, you are loading the right elbow with effectively no real rotation so rather than load against the 'top' of the shaft as in swinging, you are loading more on the 'side' of the shaft. A 90 degree difference - always loading the shaft at 90 degrees to the direction of the loading force in either case.

When you use a horizontal hinge 'hit' you aren't using the full benefits of CF and you are 'forced' to time the squaring of the clubface manually. In other words, since you didn't allow the rotation back, you must 'make' it happen coming through, which is an inconsistent way to play.

As combinations go, loading for hitting and then horizontal hinging isn't the worst, because it does make it easier to hit a draw. The question is the ability to control just how much draw.

The opposite case, loading for swinging and then angled hinging, is an easy way to hit a fade, and again, the question is the ability to control just how much fade.

The force vectors just are less compatible than for a 'straight' ball. As long as you understand the shot shapes that naturally result from each, you can play effectively with any combination. I suspect this is why Homer stated that hinge action does not differentiate hitting and swinging.

Very good post Ed-Miester, Eddie-Jam, Ed-A-Rama.

Also, Dave, the recommendations are for uncompensated (unmanipulated) strokes.

Originally Posted by EdZ A key difference is rotation, and the orientation of the shaft to the loading.

When you swing, you are loading the left wrist due to two primary factors, a startup swivel (rotation onto the plane) and going to 'end' (loading in the plane of the left wrist cock and getting 'under' the shaft)

When you hit, you are loading the right elbow with effectively no real rotation so rather than load against the 'top' of the shaft as in swinging, you are loading more on the 'side' of the shaft. A 90 degree difference - always loading the shaft at 90 degrees to the direction of the loading force in either case.



When you use a horizontal hinge 'hit' you aren't using the full benefits of CF and you are 'forced' to time the squaring of the clubface manually. In other words, since you didn't allow the rotation back, you must 'make' it happen coming through, which is an inconsistent way to play.

As combinations go, loading for hitting and then horizontal hinging isn't the worst, because it does make it easier to hit a draw. The question is the ability to control just how much draw.

The opposite case, loading for swinging and then angled hinging, is an easy way to hit a fade, and again, the question is the ability to control just how much fade.

The force vectors just are less compatible than for a 'straight' ball. As long as you understand the shot shapes that naturally result from each, you can play effectively with any combination. I suspect this is why Homer stated that hinge action does not differentiate hitting and swinging.

Just a quick one EDZ, do you think a Strong Shoulder throw on Hitting will compensate the draw/hook on Hitter using Horzontal Hinging? Or perhaps we can work on the grip a little bit too?