Tomasello, Chapter 4

I'm finding the whole Tomasello videos very instructive. In Chapter 4 he discusses and demonstrates vertical, horizontal and angled hinging and he shows that these three motions are caused by manipulations of the clubface (guided by the back of the left hand, or front of the right hand) from impact to finish.

He then goes on to demonstrate that these three ball flights are caused by down the line, inside out and outside in swings.

So which is it? ..or is hand manipulation, or clubhead path manipulation wrt the stance line, just alternate solutions?

Thanks,
Alan

Originally Posted by Weightshift I'm finding the whole Tomasello videos very instructive. In Chapter 4 he discusses and demonstrates vertical, horizontal and angled hinging and he shows that these three motions are caused by manipulations of the clubface (guided by the back of the left hand, or front of the right hand) from impact to finish.

He then goes on to demonstrate that these three ball flights are caused by down the line, inside out and outside in swings.

So which is it? ..or is hand manipulation, or clubhead path manipulation wrt the stance line, just alternate solutions?

Thanks,
Alan

Alan,

Study right arm motions (section 10-3), Left Wrist Motions (section 10-18, the Magic of the Right Forearm per section 7-3,go through the hinge motion section (section 10-10)...

Then look at the stroke patterns from section 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 and identify the component variations that Homer uses from the above sections then re-read everything on those components....re-watch the Tomasello Chapter 4 video, then come back with more and/or revisit your initial questions.

Enjoy the learning process,

DG

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf Alan,

Study right arm motions (section 10-3), Left Wrist Motions (section 10-18, the Magic of the Right Forearm per section 7-3,go through the hinge motion section (section 10-10)...

Then look at the stroke patterns from section 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 and identify the component variations that Homer uses from the above sections then re-read everything on those components....re-watch the Tomasello Chapter 4 video, then come back with more and/or revisit your initial questions.

Enjoy the learning process,

DG

I've been doing what you suggested but think I'm more confused than ever . What does "paddlewheel action" actually mean?

[Fortunately, over the winter, I converted the Book to HTML, for my personal use -- and makes quoting so easy]

E.g. 2-G
These motions also duplicate the motions of the paddles of a paddlewheel rotating around an axis vertical to one of the three Basic Planes. And an equivalent term could be "Clubface Paddlewheel Action" executed as a Left Wrist Paddlewheel Motion.

E.g. 6-B-1-0
This results in a smooth, even Thrust for acceleration of the Lever Assemblies (6-A-2) from an otherwise unruly force. Active or Passive, the straightening Right Elbow with its Paddlewheel Action, powers, guides and regulates the #3 Accumulator Motion (7-1 but not the actual Clubface aligning (1-F). Study (2-M), (7-11) and Component 19.

E.g. 7-18
The Paddlewheel Action of the straightening Right Elbow (10-10-C) initiates and sustains the #3 Accumulator Hand Motion (4-D-0) until the Both-Arms-Straight and Zero Accumulator #3 position of Full Extension - but, of course, under the guidance of the Flat, Vertical Left Wrist Hinge Action (2-G).

E.g. 10-2-D
The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exactly like a paddle-wheel rotating On Plane - no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact. See (10-10-C).

E.g. 10-10-C
This is identical to the paddle-Wheel motion of the straightening Right Arm but is a superior procedure (1-F).

E.g. 10-19-0
Hitters using Horizontal Hinging must consciously resist the tendency of Right Arm Paddlewheel Action toward Angled Hinging.

E.g. 10-24-E
The Paddlewheel Action of Angled Hinging (10-10-C) or the Throw Out Action of Accumulator #3 (6-B-3-0), if unhampered, will whip the Hands and the Clubface into impact alignment per (7-23).

E.g. Glossary
FLAT AND VERTICAL FLAT LEFT WRIST Example - Left hand Karate chop.
Mechanical - The Paddlewheel blade relationships as vertical to its axis of rotation and vertical to its plane of rotation.
Golf - Positioning the Left Wrist to be vertical to its Left Shoulder Axis and to its Associated Plane during Impact.

E.g. Index
Paddlewheel (10-10-C)

Even with all my years in the Navy, I've never seen a paddle wheel -- and can think of nothing that it might do that would illustrate an action in the golf swing. Please explain.

Originally Posted by Weightshift I've been doing what you suggested but think I'm more confused than ever <g>. What does "paddlewheel action" actually mean?

[Fortunately, over the winter, I converted the Book to HTML, for my personal use -- and makes quoting so easy]

E.g. 2-G
These motions also duplicate the motions of the paddles of a paddlewheel rotating around an axis vertical to one of the three Basic Planes. And an equivalent term could be "Clubface Paddlewheel Action" executed as a Left Wrist Paddlewheel Motion.

E.g. 6-B-1-0
This results in a smooth, even Thrust for acceleration of the Lever Assemblies (6-A-2) from an otherwise unruly force. Active or Passive, the straightening Right Elbow with its Paddlewheel Action, powers, guides and regulates the #3 Accumulator Motion (7-1 but not the actual Clubface aligning (1-F). Study (2-M), (7-11) and Component 19.

E.g. 7-18
The Paddlewheel Action of the straightening Right Elbow (10-10-C) initiates and sustains the #3 Accumulator Hand Motion (4-D-0) until the Both-Arms-Straight and Zero Accumulator #3 position of Full Extension - but, of course, under the guidance of the Flat, Vertical Left Wrist Hinge Action (2-G).

E.g. 10-2-D
The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exactly like a paddle-wheel rotating On Plane - no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact. See (10-10-C).

E.g. 10-10-C
This is identical to the paddle-Wheel motion of the straightening Right Arm but is a superior procedure (1-F).

E.g. 10-19-0
Hitters using Horizontal Hinging must consciously resist the tendency of Right Arm Paddlewheel Action toward Angled Hinging.

E.g. 10-24-E
The Paddlewheel Action of Angled Hinging (10-10-C) or the Throw Out Action of Accumulator #3 (6-B-3-0), if unhampered, will whip the Hands and the Clubface into impact alignment per (7-23).

E.g. Glossary
FLAT AND VERTICAL FLAT LEFT WRIST Example - Left hand Karate chop.
Mechanical - The Paddlewheel blade relationships as vertical to its axis of rotation and vertical to its plane of rotation.
Golf - Positioning the Left Wrist to be vertical to its Left Shoulder Axis and to its Associated Plane during Impact.

E.g. Index
Paddlewheel (10-10-C)

Even with all my years in the Navy, I've never seen a paddle wheel -- and can think of nothing that it might do that would illustrate an action in the golf swing. Please explain.

When in a state of confusion regarding a word like Paddlewheel...one should seek a dictionary or do a google search...

Checkout this link regarding Paddle Wheel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddle_wheel

Then go back to the sections on left wrist motion, angled hinge action and right arm motion...then try to execute a hitters motion in regards to those sections with the picture of the paddle wheel. I believe a light bulb might go off...

DG

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf When in a state of confusion regarding a word like Paddlewheel...one should seek a dictionary or do a google search...

Oh I did, but there's nothing out there related to the golf swing except this critical view of Kelley:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/52812...liar+With....-
"The upshot of all this is that Kelly appears to have no real understanding of the biomechanics of the shoulder stroke. In the shoulder stroke, the arm pits don't really open. The "axel" of the "Paddle Wheel" would be the clavicle that connects the two shoulder sockets to make a unit, not unlike a coat hanger on a closet rod. When the "Paddle Wheel" turns, the whole shoulderframe rotates about the clavicle as a unit. This is not an arms action stroke, with the arm pits hinging open as Kelley describes."

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf Checkout this link regarding Paddle Wheel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddle_wheel

Like feathering the clubface through the water. You've
got to be joking.

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf Then go back to the sections on left wrist motion, angled hinge action and right arm motion...then try to execute a hitters motion in regards to those sections with the picture of the paddle wheel. I believe a light bulb might go off...
DG

I don't know about a light bulb going off -- I think you are in the dark as much as me about this one, else you would have described what Kelley meant in your own words.

T

Originally Posted by Weightshift Oh I did, but there's nothing out there related to the golf swing except this critical view of Kelley:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/52812...liar+With....-
"The upshot of all this is that Kelly appears to have no real understanding of the biomechanics of the shoulder stroke. In the shoulder stroke, the arm pits don't really open. The "axel" of the "Paddle Wheel" would be the clavicle that connects the two shoulder sockets to make a unit, not unlike a coat hanger on a closet rod. When the "Paddle Wheel" turns, the whole shoulderframe rotates about the clavicle as a unit. This is not an arms action stroke, with the arm pits hinging open as Kelley describes."



Like feathering the clubface through the water. You've
got to be joking.



I don't know about a light bulb going off -- I think you are in the dark as much as me about this one, else you would have described what Kelley meant in your own words.

T

Sounds like your issue with hitting is more involved than just the paddle wheel concept...sorry I couldn't help you. Some get it, Some don't, Some want to make it more complicated than it is...

DG

Originally Posted by Weightshift I'm finding the whole Tomasello videos very instructive. In Chapter 4 he discusses and demonstrates vertical, horizontal and angled hinging and he shows that these three motions are caused by manipulations of the clubface (guided by the back of the left hand, or front of the right hand) from impact to finish.

He then goes on to demonstrate that these three ball flights are caused by down the line, inside out and outside in swings.

So which is it? ..or is hand manipulation, or clubhead path manipulation wrt the stance line, just alternate solutions?

Thanks,
Alan

where do you get these chapters-vids of toms?

Originally Posted by powerdraw where do you get these chapters-vids of toms?

they are in the video section of this site

Originally Posted by jim_0068 they are in the video section of this site

Thanks for answering 'powerdraw' on my behalf. I see that you and 'Delaware Golf' are listed as 'Senior Members'. What exactly does that mean?

Would you care to step in and explain what is so remarkable about a paddle wheel that Homer Kelley felt it necessary to use its example in explaining part of the golf swing?

Thanks,
Alan

Originally Posted by Weightshift Thanks for answering 'powerdraw' on my behalf. I see that you and 'Delaware Golf' are listed as 'Senior Members'. What exactly does that mean?

Would you care to step in and explain what is so remarkable about a paddle wheel that Homer Kelley felt it necessary to use its example in explaining part of the golf swing?

Thanks,
Alan

Alan,

I'm the one who supplied Lynn and his staff with the Tomasello video you found "very instructive"...that's what "Senior Member" means...

Have fun studying TGM.

DG

Originally Posted by jim_0068 they are in the video section of this site

thanks man! no wonder i couldnt understand the chapters stuff, i have the dvd of the entire thing in my library...lol thanks to a well known 'love the right arm swinger' guy...a real rat.lol

Originally Posted by Yoda Weightshift:

You are correct in that 'vertical' means 'perpendicular' or 'at right angles to,' and I encourage you to use that term if you prefer.

Actually I made a mistake. According to the dictionary..
perpendicular: At right angles to plane of horizon.

So 'perpendicular' means 'vertical'. I always thought it meant at right angles to anything

It seems that others are confused too:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=right%20angle
"An angle formed by the perpendicular intersection of two straight lines; an angle of 90°.

However..
http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=perpendicular
Synonym: vertical (Alan: no mention of 90 degrees)
Antonym: horizontal

We are incorrect in saying that vertical (or perpendicular) means at right angles to. Vertical (or perpendicular) is DEFINED as being at right angles to plane of horizon (ONLY AT RIGHT ANGLES TO PLANE OF HORIZON) not at right angles to anything we choose.

Originally Posted by Yoda The term is, as you say, "absolute" in that it defines a 90 degree relationship between, e.g., two surfaces.

"Vertical" is absolute in that it is FIXED at right angles to the plane of the horizon. If we wish to define a relationship between two planes at right angles to each other, we must say that they are "at right angles to each other" or "have a 90 degree relationship".

Of all the myriad of possible planes, Vertical and Horizontal planes are special, absolute, cases (defined by Man), as all other (angled) planes fall within these two limits.

'Horizontal', 'Vertical' and 'Angled' are all adjectives but the first two are also nouns e.g. "..to the Vertical"

Originally Posted by Yoda However, that relationship can be with any given plane, not just the horizontal. Which, of course, makes it "relative."

And that is the way the term is used in TGM

So unfortunate.
No wonder I couldn't understand some of the text!

Originally Posted by Yoda Weightshift:

You are correct in that 'vertical' means 'perpendicular' or 'at right angles to,' and I encourage you to use that term if you prefer. The term is, as you say, "absolute" in that it defines a 90 degree relationship between, e.g., two surfaces. However, that relationship can be with any given plane, not just the horizontal. Which, of course, makes it "relative."

And that is the way the term is used in TGM: Vertical (or perpendicular) relates to each of the Three Basic Planes (Horizontal, Vertical and Angled) and not just to the Horizontal. In other words, it is possible to be Vertical not only to the Horizontal Plane, but also Vertical relative to the Vertical and Angled Planes.

Do this for me:

Stand a pencil on the cover of a book laying on a table. The pencil is perpendicular -- or vertical -- in relation to the book (and its horizontal plane). Now, holding the pencil in place, stand the book upright (in a vertical plane). Though the pencil now may be said to be horizontal (in relation to the horizontal plane), it remains perpendicular, or vertical, to the book (and its now vertical plane). The same holds true when the book is tilted on any angled plane, i.e., the pencil remains perpendicular, or vertical, to the book (and its now angled plane).

Similarly, holding the Flat Left Wrist perpendicular, or Vertical, to any one of the Three Basic Planes of Motion -- Horizontal, Vertical or Angled) imparts its Motion to the Clubface. That is good news, because...

When you control the Left Wrist...

You control the Clubface.

And when you control the Clubface...

You control the Ball.

And when you control the Ball...

You control the Game.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perpendicular
1. Mathematics. Intersecting at or forming right angles.
2. Being at right angles to the horizontal; vertical. See Synonyms at vertical.

In message <123j0rlfss99o9f@news.supernews.com>, Alan Illeman writes
>I'm studying a book about geometry (of the golf swing) where the
>author describes something being vertical to an angled plane,
>when he really means, IMO, "at right angles to" an angled plane.
>
>I always thought that "vertical" and "horizontal" were absolutes
>(it's either vertical or it isn't) carved in stone, and that all angled
>planes fall between these two fixed limits.

They are almost absolute, but approximations are allowed.
>
>I sought confirmation from my Concise Oxford Dictionary (196
>
>(1)HORIZONTAL: Of, at, the horizon; parallel to a plane of this; at
> right angles to the vertical.
>(2)VERTICAL: Perpendicular to plane of horizon.
>(3)PERPENDICULAR: At right angles to plane of horizon.

Not necessarily; this is the original meaning, but perpendicular can
always be qualified by reference to a different plane or line.

>(4)RIGHT: (of angle) neither acute nor obtuse, of 90 degrees, made
> by lines meeting not obliquely but perpendicularly.
>
>I'm amazed that COD confuses me even more.
>
>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perpendicular
>1. Mathematics. Intersecting at or forming right angles.
>2. Being at right angles to the horizontal; vertical. See Synonyms at
> vertical.
>
>If the context is in doubt, how do I decide which of these two
>meanings is appropriate?

The context should always make it clear whether the word is being used
in an absolute sense, or relatively. If no relative is specified, take
it as absolute, meaning vertical or upright.

--