pics of wrist impact position--anti roll?

Two pictures of wrists at impact
The picture on the left was the "recommended wrist position," while the picture on the right was labelled the "antiroll wrist position"

I think I often have an impact position similar to the picture on the right side.

Quote from the author (TGM-educated)
"An antiroll wrist position at impact (where the lead wrist is flat but rolled to the right for a right-handed player) will counterbalance a closed face. One can play using this variation, but like the "rolled" position of a weak grip, requires perfect timing and is consequently subject to under or over correction on the downswing."

What do you think of the last sentence (in bold)? I tend to have a closed clubface (at the top of the backswing) and the impact position seen in the picture on the right. Do you think it's a bad impact position for the wrists?

Thanks

Originally Posted by noproblemos

Two pictures of wrists at impact
The picture on the left was the "recommended wrist position," while the picture on the right was labelled the "antiroll wrist position"

I think I often have an impact position similar to the picture on the right side.

Quote from the author (TGM-educated)
"An antiroll wrist position at impact (where the lead wrist is flat but rolled to the right for a right-handed player) will counterbalance a closed face. One can play using this variation, but like the "rolled" position of a weak grip, requires perfect timing and is consequently subject to under or over correction on the downswing."

What do you think of the last sentence (in bold)? I tend to have a closed clubface (at the top of the backswing) and the impact position seen in the picture on the right. Do you think it's a bad impact position for the wrists?

Thanks

The pic on the right is the Trevino 10-2-D look. Due to the Turned Left Hand Grip, the release motion must be made with the left hand still in the turned condition and the Finish Swivel MUST happen later. Also, Horizontal Hinging with this grip type is a NO NO.

All that being said . . . There are some particularly those on the Darkside that actually recommend a Turned Left Hand BECAUSE it eliminates the need for any Swiveling PRIOR TO the Imapct Interval. Thus ELIMINATING what could be percieved as an "unnecessary variable." So you just have the Left Hand Turned to the Plane and it just rides the Plane Uncocks ONLY, which is "throwing the Clubface at the ball."

So an strong arguement could be made to support the bold statement.

Examples would be Lee Buck, Zinger and Morgan Pressel.

Daly and Couples too.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket The pic on the right is the Trevino 10-2-D look. Due to the Turned Left Hand Grip, the release motion must be made with the left hand still in the turned condition and the Finish Swivel MUST happen later. Also, Horizontal Hinging with this grip type is a NO NO.

All that being said . . . There are some particularly those on the Darkside that actually recommend a Turned Left Hand BECAUSE it eliminates the need for any Swiveling PRIOR TO the Imapct Interval. Thus ELIMINATING what could be percieved as an "unnecessary variable." So you just have the Left Hand Turned to the Plane and it just rides the Plane Uncocks ONLY, which is "throwing the Clubface at the ball."

So an strong arguement could be made to support the bold statement. [Emphasis added.]

Examples would be Lee Buck, Zinger and Morgan Pressel.

12 piece,

Did you mean to say that a strong argument could be made against the bold statement?

RT

Originally Posted by mattsdad 12 piece,

Did you mean to say that a strong argument could be made against the bold statement?

RT

No sir. I meant FOR because the need for Swivel is eliminated as well as Horizontal Hinging. With the Left Hand "pre-turned" to the Plane then there is no need for all the required Roll of 10-2-B.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket No sir. I meant FOR because the need for Swivel is eliminated as well as Horizontal Hinging. With the Left Hand "pre-turned" to the Plane then there is no need for all the required Roll of 10-2-B.

12 piece,

I'm a little confused. Your first post said:

"All that being said . . . There are some particularly those on the Darkside that actually recommend a Turned Left Hand BECAUSE it eliminates the need for any Swiveling PRIOR TO the Imapct Interval. Thus ELIMINATING what could be percieved as an 'unnecessary variable.' So you just have the Left Hand Turned to the Plane and it just rides the Plane Uncocks ONLY, which is 'throwing the Clubface at the ball.'

So an strong arguement could be made to support the bold statement."

I read this to mean that a 10-2-D grip with its attendant lack of roll can be argued to be the preferred variation. However, the bold portion of the original post indicated that the "anti-roll" grip requires better timing than (I presume) Standard Wrist Action and therefore would not be preferred. I have reproduced the bold portion of the original post below.

Quote from the author (TGM-educated)
"An antiroll wrist position at impact (where the lead wrist is flat but rolled to the right for a right-handed player) will counterbalance a closed face. One can play using this variation, but like the "rolled" position of a weak grip, requires perfect timing and is consequently subject to under or over correction on the downswing."

Am I missing something?

RT

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket The pic on the right is the Trevino 10-2-D look. Due to the Turned Left Hand Grip, the release motion must be made with the left hand still in the turned condition and the Finish Swivel MUST happen later. Also, Horizontal Hinging with this grip type is a NO NO.

All that being said . . . There are some particularly those on the Darkside that actually recommend a Turned Left Hand BECAUSE it eliminates the need for any Swiveling PRIOR TO the Imapct Interval. Thus ELIMINATING what could be percieved as an "unnecessary variable." So you just have the Left Hand Turned to the Plane and it just rides the Plane Uncocks ONLY, which is "throwing the Clubface at the ball."

So an strong arguement could be made to support the bold statement.

Examples would be Lee Buck, Zinger and Morgan Pressel.

The main trade off is power. Lee, Zinger and Pressel could have all hit it farther using a weaker grip and full roll (transfer power). This requires better Rhythm however.

But they never would have been as accurate as they are.

It will be interesting to see if Pressel stays with the grip she has now, or if playing with longer drivers will push her to try to gain distance.

A vast majority of higher handicapers would do better with 10-2-D (and the fade it basically requires) because of the significant advantage in ease of compression as well as the lesser requirement of Rhythm. The problem arises when 10-2-D players try to play a draw

Originally Posted by EdZ The main trade off is power. Lee, Zinger and Pressel could have all hit it farther using a weaker grip and full roll (transfer power). This requires better Rhythm however.

But they never would have been as accurate as they are.

It will be interesting to see if Pressel stays with the grip she has now, or if playing with longer drivers will push her to try to gain distance.

A vast majority of higher handicapers would do better with 10-2-D (and the fade it basically requires) because of the significant advantage in ease of compression as well as the lesser requirement of Rhythm. The problem arises when 10-2-D players try to play a draw

If a 10-2-D reduces some power because you do not receive the full power of accumulator #3, then how come couples and daly hit the ball so far?

Originally Posted by jim_0068 If a 10-2-D reduces some power because you do not receive the full power of accumulator #3, then how come couples and daly hit the ball so far?

Agreed. I would say there are more long players with a Turned Left Hand than not.

Originally Posted by EdZ The main trade off is power. Lee, Zinger and Pressel could have all hit it farther using a weaker grip and full roll (transfer power). This requires better Rhythm however.

But they never would have been as accurate as they are.

It will be interesting to see if Pressel stays with the grip she has now, or if playing with longer drivers will push her to try to gain distance.

A vast majority of higher handicapers would do better with 10-2-D (and the fade it basically requires) because of the significant advantage in ease of compression as well as the lesser requirement of Rhythm. The problem arises when 10-2-D players try to play a draw

I'm not suggesting you are wrong EdZ, but how would you explain the accuracy of Ben Hogan and Moe Norman with these principles?

Originally Posted by mrodock I'm not suggesting you are wrong EdZ, but how would you explain the accuracy of Ben Hogan and Moe Norman with these principles?

Hogan let CF help. His release 'action' made sure CF could keep things on track and take over. Not a true CF swinger per se (like Couples), although you could say he was a CF swinger from release point on. More of a CF 'slinger'

Moe was more of a hitter IMO.

[quote=noproblemos;23464]

Two pictures of wrists at impact
The picture on the left was the "recommended wrist position," while the picture on the right was labelled the "antiroll wrist position"

I think I often have an impact position similar to the picture on the right side.

Quote from the author (TGM-educated)
"An antiroll wrist position at impact (where the lead wrist is flat but rolled to the right for a right-handed player) will counterbalance a closed face. One can play using this variation, but like the "rolled" position of a weak grip, requires perfect timing and is consequently subject to under or over correction on the downswing."

What do you think of the last sentence (in bold)? I tend to have a closed clubface (at the top of the backswing) and the impact position seen in the picture on the right. Do you think it's a bad impact position for the wrists?
I can't see the picture!!!!

I can not see the pictures!!!

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Sorry I re-read the statement in bold. I'm not sure I know what the heck it is saying. But all I'm saying is that it could be argued that 10-2-D could be a better grip for some than 10-2-B due to reducing the variable of Swiveling. I think Mac O'Grady actually was a proponent of this.
b

Mac O'Grady suffered from over acceleration issues in the downstroke which leads to loss of club head lag which means the shaft and club head is doing funny stiff closing coming into impact. The stronger left hand grip will help negate the effects of this but really we should all be striving to maintain and sustain club head lag rather than building in modifications to deal will the loss of it in the downstroke . Keep the swing on plane in the downstroke, have a flat wrist at impact and sustain club head lag past the ball until both arms are straight and there is no left shot. IMO that is the real anti left way of doing things .

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Sorry I re-read the statement in bold. I'm not sure I know what the heck it is saying. But all I'm saying is that it could be argued that 10-2-D could be a better grip for some than 10-2-B due to reducing the variable of Swiveling. I think Mac O'Grady actually was a proponent of this.

Sorry if I have confused the issue at hand. But again my position is that 10-2-D with the Turned Left Hand ain't necessarily a bad grip choice.

12 piece,

Thanks. That's what I thought you were trying to say.

RT

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Agreed. I would say there are more long players with a Turned Left Hand than not.

There are a couple reasons for this. Generally speaking, a turned left hand equates to a slightly more forward leaning shaft at impact, which delofts the club and adds distance.

Also, there are power advantages in allowing the cupped left wrist at the top, which is in contrast to what Trevino and Pressel do, then keep the wrist flat (or in Trevino's case, slightly arched) at the top - this is the root of why their power is not maximized using the 10-2-D grip (and why their accuracy is).

Couples and Daly use CF to square up the club. They both have excellent Rhythm, which combined with the cupped left wrist at the top (and the ability to retain their angles deep into the downswing because of the cup) contribute to their distances.

So if you use 10-2-D as an angled hinge swinger, you can still have power, given good Rhythm, but 10-2-D as a hitter is generally less powerful (because as a hitter, they do not allow the cup at the top). Depending on the player, the more 'massive' impact of a 10-2-D hitting motion can make up for 'most' of the distance differences, but never all of it IMO.

Originally Posted by EdZ There are a couple reasons for this. Generally speaking, a turned left hand equates to a slightly more forward leaning shaft at impact, which delofts the club and adds distance.

Also, there are power advantages in allowing the cupped left wrist at the top, which is in contrast to what Trevino and Pressel do, then keep the wrist flat (or in Trevino's case, slightly arched) at the top - this is the root of why their power is not maximized using the 10-2-D grip (and why their accuracy is).

Couples and Daly use CF to square up the club. They both have excellent Rhythm, which combined with the cupped left wrist at the top (and the ability to retain their angles deep into the downswing because of the cup) contribute to their distances.

So if you use 10-2-D as an angled hinge swinger, you can still have power, given good Rhythm, but 10-2-D as a hitter is generally less powerful (because as a hitter, they do not allow the cup at the top). Depending on the player, the more 'massive' impact of a 10-2-D hitting motion can make up for 'most' of the distance differences, but never all of it IMO.

Good post. I think that handicap players could possibly benefit from 10-2-D if the required release motion (hammering) is understood. It eliminates some of the moving parts and helps negate throwaway. Most amateurs suffer loss of distance from throwaway and leakage. So 10-2-D could be a "stepping stone" grip.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Good post. I think that handicap players could possibly benefit from 10-2-D if the required release motion (hammering) is understood. It eliminates some of the moving parts and helps negate throwaway. Most amateurs suffer loss of distance from throwaway and leakage. So 10-2-D could be a "stepping stone" grip.

My copy of the book hasn't yet arrived but i'm curious whether my grip is similar to what has been described.

I grip in my left hand in the "natural" position in which it hangs - turned inwards and i can see 3 knuckles. The left wrist has a slight bend given it is turned so much. I thought i already had a strong grip but my coach made it stronger again.

Interestingly played in a couple of pro-ams recently and the pros have always commented on my grip, usually "no one plays with a grip that strong these days you need to fix that and make it more neutral"

Originally Posted by bergsey My copy of the book hasn't yet arrived but i'm curious whether my grip is similar to what has been described.

I grip in my left hand in the "natural" position in which it hangs - turned inwards and i can see 3 knuckles. The left wrist has a slight bend given it is turned so much. I thought i already had a strong grip but my coach made it stronger again.

Interestingly played in a couple of pro-ams recently and the pros have always commented on my grip, usually "no one plays with a grip that strong these days you need to fix that and make it more neutral"

Here is how Mr. Kelley defined 10-2-D . . .

10-2-D STRONG DOUBLE ACTION T/V/A Now the Right Wrist is Vertical and the Left Wrist is Turned to the top of the Clubshaft so that the Left Wristcocking motion will be on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. The #3 Pressure Point and the left thumb are also on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. Double Action - same as 10-2-C.

Very compatible with the Cut Shot procedures. Any Left Wrist Bend at Impact Fix should be maintained throughout the Stroke.

This Grip Type features maximum Wristcocking action and strong support for both Acceleration and Impact loads. The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exactly like a paddle-wheel rotating On-Plane - no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact. See 10-10-C.

Don't listen to those people you CAN play golf with that grip. You can win majors with that grip. You can be considered the best ballstriker of all time with that grip.

The key is knowing HOW YOU MUST RELEASE. So go get your hammer . . .

Originally Posted by Yoda Colonel,

Put a 10-2-D Grip -- Left Wrist Turned On Plane -- on a hammer whose head faces to the left. Then, drive a nail into a wall on your left. That is 'Throwing the Clubface at the Ball'. And it's a good thing. In fact, if you've got a 10-2-D Grip, it's the only thing! Through Impact, there is only Uncocking (Wrist Motion) and zero Roll (Hand Motion).

The quote from 4-D-0 (Release Motions) assumes the 10-2-B Grip (Left Wrist Vertical to the ground). Unlike the Release Motion required by the 10-2-D Grip (Wrist Motion only), the On Plane Uncocking of the Left Wrist (Wrist Motion) must be followed by the Roll of the #3 Accumulator Angle (Hand Motion). This Sequenced Release simultaneously returns the Left Wrist to Vertical and Squares the Clubface.

To alternatively square the Clubface by 'throwing' the Club past a Bending Left Wrist -- a Horizontal Wrist Motion -- is as disastrous as it is common. This is a different 'throw' -- ThrowAWAY! -- and it is far different than the Swinger's Release Wrist Throw (a Perpendicular Wrist Motion).

Very interesting thread.I have been meaning to post on this subject after making some grip changes.I thought,until I read this thread that Ihad changed to 10-2-D.But now i don't think so as i still feel like i am horizontal hingeing,though i have found that my drives now have a slight fade -everything else is straight/draw.Is there a "twiglight zone "between 10-2-B & 10-2-D?. just when i thought i was making progress

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Don't listen to those people you CAN play golf with that grip. You can win majors with that grip. You can be considered the best ballstriker of all time with that grip.

The key is knowing HOW YOU MUST RELEASE. So go get your hammer . . .

Here's some pics of my grip would be interested to hear your thoughts. I use the way my left hand naturally hangs as a guide. Ends up being a grip that most pros say is way too strong... my standard shot shape is a slight draw with the irons tending to a hook with the woods. The hardest shot for me to hit is left to right (fade or slice)

Originally Posted by hue Mac O'Grady suffered from over acceleration issues in the downstroke which leads to loss of club head lag which means the shaft and club head is doing funny stiff closing coming into impact. The stronger left hand grip will help negate the effects of this but really we should all be striving to maintain and sustain club head lag rather than building in modifications to deal will the loss of it in the downstroke . Keep the swing on plane in the downstroke, have a flat wrist at impact and sustain club head lag past the ball until both arms are straight and there is no left shot. IMO that is the real anti left way of doing things .

Suffering??? The only thing suffering here .....is the Ball!!!



Where is the loss of clubhead lag here?...Over-Acceleration?

Perhaps we all suffer from the "menace of over acceleration" from time to time...but Mac is definately not suffering here!!!

Originally Posted by bergsey Here's some pics of my grip would be interested to hear your thoughts. I use the way my left hand naturally hangs as a guide. Ends up being a grip that most pros say is way too strong... my standard shot shape is a slight draw with the irons tending to a hook with the woods. The hardest shot for me to hit is left to right (fade or slice)

I would consider that a grip you can most certainly play excellent golf with. Assuming you have a basically flat left wrist at the top, your flying wedges and plane are likely quite good. With good exensor action, you no doubt feel very 'set' at the top, and indeed, throughout your entire motion.

Nice work. Post some video or a sequence if you are able

A note regarding your fade difficulties.

Keep your right hand and left thumb where they are, and get the back of the left hand closer to matching the clubface. The key is to keep that thumb 'aft'. You might also check your grip size. The grip you have generally goes nicely with a slightly larger grip (your left hand fingers should just barely touch your thumbpad).

Originally Posted by bergsey Here's some pics of my grip would be interested to hear your thoughts. I use the way my left hand naturally hangs as a guide. Ends up being a grip that most pros say is way too strong... my standard shot shape is a slight draw with the irons tending to a hook with the woods. The hardest shot for me to hit is left to right (fade or slice)

This looks good to me man. Just one thing. Relax the right arm a bit. I would bet that your Right Forearm is not in the same plane as the shaft. Relax the arm and bend the elbow a little.

Now here's your home work with your camera. This will be illustrative for a lot of people. Get your hammer. Put YOUR NORMAL LEFT HAND GRIP ON THE HAMMER as we see here WITH THE HEAD OF THE HAMMER FACING LEFT. HAMMER A WALL TO YOUR LEFT. With the grip you have YOU CANNOT WILL NOT NO WAY IN HELL HIT THE WALL SQUARE IF YOU ROLL YOUR LEFT HAND. Right?

Now start the process over . . . BUT THIS TIME WITH A LEFT HAND THAT IS "WEAKER" or VERTICAL. Hammer the wall to your left. Guess what? If you DON'T ROLL (Swivel), YOU CANNOT WILL NOT NO WAY IN HELL HIT THE WALL SQUARE.

Seeing and feeling is believing dude. This is what you HAVE TO DO WITH THE GOLF CLUB. Your release motion MUST COMPLY WITH YOUR GRIP TYPE. See the pics of Lee Buck? Note how his left hand REMAINS TURNED TO THE PLANE? Why? If he ROLLED like every pop instructor says, he'd be in the left woods where the elephants go to die.

What is amazing about this all is Mr. K GOT IT RIGHT!!! The man was a GENIUS!!!!

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket This looks good to me man. Just one thing. Relax the right arm a bit. I would bet that your Right Forearm is not in the same plane as the shaft. Relax the arm and bend the elbow a little.
Seeing and feeling is believing dude. This is what you HAVE TO DO WITH THE GOLF CLUB. Your release motion MUST COMPLY WITH YOUR GRIP TYPE. See the pics of Lee Buck? Note how his left hand REMAINS TURNED TO THE PLANE? Why? If he ROLLED like every pop instructor says, he'd be in the left woods where the elephants go to die.

What is amazing about this all is Mr. K GOT IT RIGHT!!! The man was a GENIUS!!!!

Actually my right elbow is tucked closer to my body with the right forearm on plane - a bit hard to see from that pic, will post another one down the line (this is the first thing along with my grip my coach changed).

Homework sounds interesting !!

This is all starting to make sense... on my good shots i don't feel the release at all (or feel that i've had to conciously do anything to square the face)

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Here is how Mr. Kelley defined 10-2-D . . .

10-2-D STRONG DOUBLE ACTION T/V/A Now the Right Wrist is Vertical and the Left Wrist is Turned to the top of the Clubshaft so that the Left Wristcocking motion will be on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. The #3 Pressure Point and the left thumb are also on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. Double Action - same as 10-2-C.

Very compatible with the Cut Shot procedures. Any Left Wrist Bend at Impact Fix should be maintained throughout the Stroke.

This Grip Type features maximum Wristcocking action and strong support for both Acceleration and Impact loads. The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exactly like a paddle-wheel rotating On-Plane - no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact. See 10-10-C.

Don't listen to those people you CAN play golf with that grip. You can win majors with that grip. You can be considered the best ballstriker of all time with that grip.

The key is knowing HOW YOU MUST RELEASE. So go get your hammer . . .

Hammer in hand. I'm all ears and very curious.
is this only for hitters btw?

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Now here's your home work with your camera. This will be illustrative for a lot of people. Get your hammer. Put YOUR NORMAL LEFT HAND GRIP ON THE HAMMER as we see here WITH THE HEAD OF THE HAMMER FACING LEFT. HAMMER A WALL TO YOUR LEFT. With the grip you have YOU CANNOT WILL NOT NO WAY IN HELL HIT THE WALL SQUARE IF YOU ROLL YOUR LEFT HAND. Right?

Now start the process over . . . BUT THIS TIME WITH A LEFT HAND THAT IS "WEAKER" or VERTICAL. Hammer the wall to your left. Guess what? If you DON'T ROLL (Swivel), YOU CANNOT WILL NOT NO WAY IN HELL HIT THE WALL SQUARE.

OK here's the results of my homework, hope i got this right

Pic 1 is my normal grip, no wrist turn = hammer square
Pic 2 is my normal grip, left wrist turned = hammer points way left
Pic 3 is "weak" grip, wrist turned = hammer square





What this is telling me is that if I have my current grip + left wrist rotation then everythings going left into the bushes?

Originally Posted by bergsey What this is telling me is that if I have my current grip + left wrist rotation then everythings going left into the bushes?

More or less.

What's that saying? Left of Ralph Nader.

Originally Posted by bergsey OK here's the results of my homework, hope i got this right

Pic 1 is my normal grip, no wrist turn = hammer square
Pic 2 is my normal grip, left wrist turned = hammer points way left
Pic 3 is "weak" grip, wrist turned = hammer square





What this is telling me is that if I have my current grip + left wrist rotation then everythings going left into the bushes?

Woo!!!!! This is fantastic!!!! As you can see pictures don't tell no lies!!!! If your LEFT HAND IS TURNED ON THE GRIP you DO NOT WANT TO ROLL!!!

With your Turned grip to hit the wall square you COCK AND UNCOCK ONLY. But with the vertical grip YOU HAVE TO ROLL TO HIT THE WALL SQUARE.

Thanks for taking these pics man! The Golfing Machine should come with a video. Very nice!

Originally Posted by bergsey
Homework sounds interesting !!

This is all starting to make sense... on my good shots i don't feel the release at all (or feel that i've had to conciously do anything to square the face)

YES!!! YES!!!! YES!!!!

This is the FEEL of ANGLED HINGING!!! Which is a MUST with your grip my friend from down-under. Check this quote out . . .

,“Basic Hinging” has the following characteristics of appearance and feel. Between the “Full Roll” of Horizontal Hinging and the “No Roll” of Vertical Hinging, Angled Hinging takes on a “Half Roll” motion. While Horizontal Hinging retains the “Feel” of a “Roll”, Angled Hinging takes on a “No Roll” Feel and Vertical Hinging is executed as a “Reverse Roll”.

BTW in your description of pic 3.....nothing is Turned there (going by TGM definitions).

Originally Posted by birdie_man BTW in your description of pic 3.....nothing is Turned there (going by TGM definitions).

Correct. That is Bergsey gripping the hammer with a 10-2-B grip with Vertical left hand requiring swivel to strike the wall square.

Originally Posted by bergsey What this is telling me is that if I have my current grip + left wrist rotation then everythings going left into the bushes?

Only if you are executing hinge action as a swivel.

Hinge action is in effect from impact to separation. With the stronger lead hand grip, your 'finish swivel' happens AFTER the ball is gone. That said, you can still execute a horizontal hinge (closing only), with the stronger grip, you just wouldn't want to execute a 'release swivel' - then you'd be headed left.

Horizontal hinge, to me, feels like a very 'level' left hand frisbee toss. Important not to confuse that feel with the 'roll' feel of the release and finish swivels, which is easy to do if you are using a weaker grip, it tends to feel like one long, SMOOTH roll.

This is a confusing point in TGM definitions of hinge and swivel, which Yoda has helped clarify for me.

Originally Posted by hot chilli Ok, I understand thanks to Yoda, A Lesson with Yoda - Collin Neeman Chapter 4 - LBG Lesson - Total Motion
Made it clear what you mean A Horizontal Hinge (complete with roll and swivel ) is vertical- 90 degrees- to the ground.
Well almost because I'll have to practice.
I still have a feeling it's a clubface problem which is too "closed" at the top all the way so if I'll fix the clubface like Bagger Lance said ( thanks) with a weaker left grip, I'll have to roll my left wrist - Horizontal hinge.

Good deal. "Luck favors the Prepare Mind" according to Louis Pastore and that whole collection of Yoda and Neeman videos is a great way to Prepare your Mind and feed your Hands.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket Woo!!!!! This is fantastic!!!! As you can see pictures don't tell no lies!!!! If your LEFT HAND IS TURNED ON THE GRIP you DO NOT WANT TO ROLL!!!

With your Turned grip to hit the wall square you COCK AND UNCOCK ONLY. But with the vertical grip YOU HAVE TO ROLL TO HIT THE WALL SQUARE.

Thanks for taking these pics man! The Golfing Machine should come with a video. Very nice!



YES!!! YES!!!! YES!!!!

This is the FEEL of ANGLED HINGING!!! Which is a MUST with your grip my friend from down-under. Check this quote out . . .

,“Basic Hinging” has the following characteristics of appearance and feel. Between the “Full Roll” of Horizontal Hinging and the “No Roll” of Vertical Hinging, Angled Hinging takes on a “Half Roll” motion. While Horizontal Hinging retains the “Feel” of a “Roll”, Angled Hinging takes on a “No Roll” Feel and Vertical Hinging is executed as a “Reverse Roll”.

I really wish the pictures in this post still showed up!

So, breaking this down into simple terms, if you weaken your left hand grip by turning it to the left the more you will have to roll your hands into a horizontal hinge. If this is done correctly it produces more power but timing is a trade off? If you have a stronger left hand grip then it will require a angled hinge, or if you are like me you get it shut then it promotes a hold off vertical hinge?