Hinge Action not in Zone #3

tongzilla
Why has Hinge Action gone from Zone #3 (Hands Lane) to Zone #2 (Arms Lane)?

Surely Hinge Action has everything to do with Ball Control and hence should be in Zone #3.

What the heck was Homer on when he made these changes?
Mathew
Originally Posted by tongzilla Why has Hinge Action gone from Zone #3 (Hands Lane) to Zone #2 (Arms Lane)?

Surely Hinge Action has everything to do with Ball Control and hence should be in Zone #3.

What the heck was Homer on when he made these changes?
No, I disagree. Its rightful place is in zone 2. The travel between each Hinge action is different (rhythm) has everything to do with the clubhead and the straightening right arm for the procedure at hand.... hence clubhead control.
brianmanzella
I agree.

Change is tough for some, but I know where he was coming from on this.

Makes sense to me.
tongzilla
Originally Posted by Mathew No, I disagree. Its rightful place is in zone 2. The travel between each Hinge action is different (rhythm) has everything to do with the clubhead and the straightening right arm for the procedure at hand.... hence clubhead control.
Thanks Mathew for the reply, however I find the reason you have given is inadequate for me. I hope those who agree are not agreeing just because Homer made the changes, ipso facto, it must be correct. If it is so obvious that Hinge Action belongs to Zone #2, then why did Homer put it in Zone #3 in the 6th Edition? Was it just a careless mistake? I bet you it wasn't. Have the reasons that got Hinge Action in Zone #3 become invalid or superseded by other reasons? This is what I want to know.

I get the feeling that if Hinge Action were to be in Zone #2 in the 6th Edition, but moved to Zone #3 in the 7th Edition, everyone will be saying that it belongs to Zone #3 and will give all the possible reasons to validate the change.

This is such an exciting topic and can be explored from so many different angles. Lets start with the common sense approach. How many times have you heard about Hinge Action being used to control the Clubhead? Compare this to the number of times Hinge Action being associated with Clubface control. I can tell you for sure the latter far outweighs the former by a lot. Let me give you a few examples:

Originally Posted by Yoda There are three major concepts in The Golfing Machine:

1. Hinge Action (Clubface control);

2. Angular Motion (Clubhead Control); and

3. The Inclined Plane (Clubshaft and Sweetspot Control).

To these Three Major Concepts is attached endless supporting detail. Unless and until the 'Big Three' are understood, that detail continues to baffle and confuse, and the Book -- not to mention the Golf Stroke -- remains a mystery.

Now to your question. The Golfer's Flail is the means by which Angular Motion and Momentum is generated (2-K). It is a Clubhead concept and thus totally distinct from the Hinge Action (a Clubface concept). To be sure, there are interrelationships, but these do not override the separate identities of each.

Reading between the lines of your question, the Hinge Pins of the Golfer's Flail (in the Left Wrist and Shoulder) are there to permit, create and sustain Clubhead Momentum. They are not to be confused with the Hinge Pins of the Left Shoulder Hinge Assembly, which are there to control the Clubface and maintain the Clubshaft On Plane.
Topic:2-c-3 Ballistic path
Originally Posted by Yoda "Our next step is to learn how to use your Flat and Vertical Left Wrist
to replicate the Mechanical Motion of each of the Three Hinge Actions. The
goal is to convert our carefully developed G.O.L.F. Engineering System into
your eagerly awaiting G.O.L.F. Feel System. When that happens, you will have
gained total control of the Clubface for the rest of your life."
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by rwh The Hands are strong, educated, adjustable Clamps that serve not only to attach the Club to the power package but, also, to control the clubface.

Hands (Zone 3) = clubface Control. Arms (Zone 2) = Power Package
Bob is back , and as usual, is right on target.

We need ya, rwh.

Pul-ease...

Keep on posting!
There are many more so I will not bore you with more quotes.

But lets here what Homer Kelly had to say in the 7th Edition about Hinge Actions:

""Hinge Actions" describe and control the manipulation of the Hands through the Impact Interval. This Hand manipulation in turn controls the Clubface MOTIONS." (7-10)
Sounds like Zone #3 to me.

But like Mathew said, each Hinge Action has a different Rhythm and hence difference Clubhead Travel. But that's only because of Accumulator #3. If we zero out Accumulator #3 all three Hinge Actions will have identical Clubhead Travel. Accumulator #3 is about Power and Force not Purpose or Direction and hence belongs to Zone #2 (see 9-0).

Having said all this, there are things Homer has added in the 7th Edition that needs to be examined. For example, the 6th paragraph of 7-10:

“The Left Shoulder, the Right Elbow and/or the Wrists supply the Clubhead Hinging because it does not require more control than that of Swivel type Hinging; However, The Flat Left Wrist supplies the precision Hinge Motion Control required for the Clubface. The Flat Left Wrist rides The Lever Assemblies and its relationship is constant. But also independent by reason of its required relationship to the Basic Planes per 2-G. Per sketch 1-L, Hinge Action is inseparable from Angular Motion and so it can only go aright or awry but not away."


I have more to say lets have more people chiming in...
Yoda
Originally Posted by tongzilla
Homer Kelley (7th Edition):

"... Hinge Action is inseparable from Angular Motion..."
In my opinion, the quote above is the rationale -- the only rationale -- behind Hinge Action's new home in Zone #2.

In other words, Hinge Action is generated automatically by the physics of Angular Motion (2-K) -- Horizontal Hinge Action by the Throw-Out of Centrifugal Force and Angled Hinge Action by the Drive-Out of Muscular Thrust. Vertical Hinge Action is the byproduct of neither and hence is always a deliberate, mechanical manipulation.

Thus, Hinge Action executed by the Flat Left Wrist provides only a veneer control that "individualizes" Angular Motion's Clubhead Control into the three possible motions of the Clubface (Close only, Layback only and simultaneous Close and Layback). Which, also in my opinion, is why Hinge Action was a Zone #3 Component in the prior six editions: Zone #3 is all about "Clubface Control" -- "Accuracy" and "Direction" -- and is "mostly 'finesse' control" (9-2). Zone #2 is "Clubhead Control (Power)" and its "Power Components" (9-2).

So, this 'sea change' was a bold step, one that impacted many areas of the book. Its 'as is' inclusion in the seventh edition has now introduced many inconsistencies throughout the text that could have been -- and should have been -- resolved prior to publication. This is not 'Monday morning quarterbacking': It was one of the three primary concerns I voiced last winter http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...1962#post21962. In addition to the integrating actions mentioned in that post, considerable conceptual and textual changes also are required in Chapter Nine (The Three Zones).
Mike O
A lot of good thoughts here:
Leo, absolutely a big change- and nice job questioning the reasons behind it- it deserves that kind of questioning.

I also think that Lynn was correct in explaining why the change was made- and I do think that Homer was telling you the rationale for changing it as quoted.

You might think of it like this- as noted in the 6th edition 2-G. The Geometry of hinging is clubface control- The Physics of Hinging is that Hinge Action is the result of the turning torso or orbiting arms. So he's given Physics the nod over the Geometry in regards to it's categorization in Zone#2 as opposed to the 6th edition in Zone #3. Why?

It's been 24 years since I learned of the coming change of Hinge Action from Zone#3 to #2. And I had the feeling of - "What - how could he do that!!!"- because it does really create a mental shuffle for you and everything that you've learned. I asked "Why would he do that?" And the answer that I got was "You see- everybody thinks that hinge action is something you do with your hands- and IT'S NOT!" Hence, the categorization change to move it into a category that better categorizes the component in relation to the procedural nature of the movement.

As far as the integration of concepts in the book for clarity- that's been a problem from day one. And as Lynn points out - continues to be a major flaw that doesn't help anyone. Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda in the 7th edition, but there was no way- that was going to be Mr. Kelley's 7th edition and no one elses. Those changes are needed but would have to be in the 8th edition- and if the 7th took about 24 years to publish then I guess the 8th could take over 100 years to publish.
Bagger Lance
Originally Posted by Mike O
Those changes are needed but would have to be in the 8th edition- and if the 7th took about 24 years to publish then I guess the 8th could take over 100 years to publish.
Let's hope not Mike.

Bagger
Yoda
Originally Posted by Mike O
It's been 24 years since I learned of the coming change of Hinge Action from Zone#3 to #2. And I had the feeling of - "What - how could he do that!!!"- because it does really create a mental shuffle for you and everything that you've learned. I asked "Why would he do that?" And the answer that I got was "You see- everybody thinks that hinge action is something you do with your hands- and IT'S NOT!" Hence, the categorization change to move it into a category that better categorizes the component in relation to the procedural nature of the movement.

[Bold by Yoda.]
Mike O's quote above is one of the most important statements you will ever read concerning the essential nature of Hinge Action. It demands a Yoda Hinge Action -- Part III video.

Coming soon to a computer screen near you!
lekommend
Originally Posted by Mike O A lot of good thoughts here:
Leo, absolutely a big change- and nice job questioning the reasons behind it- it deserves that kind of questioning.

I also think that Lynn was correct in explaining why the change was made- and I do think that Homer was telling you the rationale for changing it as quoted.

You might think of it like this- as noted in the 6th edition 2-G. The Geometry of hinging is clubface control- The Physics of Hinging is that Hinge Action is the result of the turning torso or orbiting arms. So he's given Physics the nod over the Geometry in regards to it's categorization in Zone#2 as opposed to the 6th edition in Zone #3. Why?

It's been 24 years since I learned of the coming change of Hinge Action from Zone#3 to #2. And I had the feeling of - "What - how could he do that!!!"- because it does really create a mental shuffle for you and everything that you've learned. I asked "Why would he do that?" And the answer that I got was "You see- everybody thinks that hinge action is something you do with your hands- and IT'S NOT!" Hence, the categorization change to move it into a category that better categorizes the component in relation to the procedural nature of the movement.

As far as the integration of concepts in the book for clarity- that's been a problem from day one. And as Lynn points out - continues to be a major flaw that doesn't help anyone. Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda in the 7th edition, but there was no way- that was going to be Mr. Kelley's 7th edition and no one elses. Those changes are needed but would have to be in the 8th edition- and if the 7th took about 24 years to publish then I guess the 8th could take over 100 years to publish.

I do agree with you.
Mathew
Originally Posted by tongzilla Thanks Mathew for the reply, however I find the reason you have given is inadequate for me. I hope those who agree are not agreeing just because Homer made the changes, ipso facto, it must be correct.
No, I did not elaborate, I just didn't want to write a thesis on the matter. Where you got the 'I'm just agreeing with Homer Kelley because he made the changes' like im a Homer drone with no brain...I do not know. Anyways, it is obvious that there are issues with hinge action on both clubhead control (angular motion) and the clubface control. Every procedure drives the primary lever assembly by creating a pressure against it which will naturally create a hinge action. Pivot driving the left arm - dual horizontal, Right forearm driving the left arm - angled... The difference right arm participation.... arms lane....

Its not to say that it doesn't belong in zone 3 either because the clubface motion through the ball is important...but there is a case for it being in zone 2. It is a grey area that Homer Kelley must of weighed up and this time chosen to be placed in zone 2.