Closed,Shut,Hooded Clubface

I understand that if you have a problem with your swing you might need to change the clubface first.Now I have played and watched alot of golf and I have noticed a greater percentage of golfers with a severely shut clubface at the top then open.I would even say 85-90% and usually they slice the ball.
Nick Faldo says you can play pretty good golf with a open or square clubface but it becomes harder when the clubface is closed.
What does TGM think about this and how do you correct it? I think closed club you better not horizontal hinge but use angled.

I think you can play better golf with a closed face rather than an open face. From a shut face at the top, you just have to make sure to "hold off" the face coming through impact and usually that'll result in a nice fade. Think Duval, Trevino, Azinger.

This is a very complicated discussion because there seems to be so many exceptions. We have to take into account all the different Grip Types, Wrist Actions and Hinge Actions.

The Clubface is always Open relative to the Plane Line at the Top. The question is how open. The "normal" amount accepted by most pros is when the leading edge approximately matches the plane angle. When this happens we say the Clubface is "square" at the Top. If the leading edge is vertical at the top, then it's considered to be "open", and if it's horizontal then it's "closed".

Remember that none of the Hinge Actions can Hood (decrease loft) the Clubface through Impact, because the Left Wrist is always "Flat". Only if the Left Wrist is Arching through Impact can we Hood the Clubface. But this violates the number one rule of Hinge Action which is constant RPM (Rhythm).

Let's look at real world evidence. Most pros have the leading edge either "square" or slightly "open" at the Top, because most have a neutral grip with a Flat or slightly Bent Left Wrist at the Top. Amateurs have it all over the place.

Also, any Bending/Arching of the Left Wrist is considered to be a Horizontal Motion (4-A) and not Rotational (Turning/Rolling 4-C). However, when the club is at the Top, Arching the Left Wrist will "close" the Clubface, and vice versa if you Bend the Left Wrist. But if you go to Impact Fix, Arching the Left Wrist should have no effect on the opening/closing the Clubface. Whether this "closed" clubface position at the top translates to a closed clubface at Impact depends on lots of things.

Let's look at real world evidence. Most pros have the leading edge either "square" or slightly "open" at the Top, because most have a neutral grip with a Flat or slightly Bent Left Wrist at the Top. Amateurs have it all over the place.

I agree with you that amateurs have it all over the place.Does the flat left wrist fix this fault or is that too simplistic?

I'm not a teacher but I see this all the time with higher handicap players and how would you go about fixing it?

Originally Posted by mp33 Let's look at real world evidence. Most pros have the leading edge either "square" or slightly "open" at the Top, because most have a neutral grip with a Flat or slightly Bent Left Wrist at the Top. Amateurs have it all over the place.

I agree with you that amateurs have it all over the place.Does the flat left wrist fix this fault or is that too simplistic?

I'm not a teacher but I see this all the time with higher handicap players and how would you go about fixing it?

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The TOP position is important... due to the effect of the 3rd law(action-reaction). However, golfers do seem to be able to play well from many TOP positions of the clubface. This shows that the TOP position can be important, but not as important as "HOW YOU BRING IT DOWN."

Lee Trevion describes himself as "a blocker," because of his STRONG GRIP and Top clubface position. I think he has done pretty well "blocking."

The Strong Single Action Grip, which is more of a "neutral grip"(in common golf lingo) usually gives more of an appearance at the TOP of the Square Clubface, and fairly FLAT Left Wrist(not arched). This allows for Horizontal Hinging, or what many would call a FULL RELEASE.

So... GRIP, WRIST ACTION, and HINGE ACTION, all working properly together, is what many people need.

Originally Posted by mp33
I agree with you that amateurs have it all over the place.Does the flat left wrist fix this fault or is that too simplistic?

I'm not a teacher but I see this all the time with higher handicap players and how would you go about fixing it?

Typical profile of a good hacker:
Strong left hand grip, bent left wrist at the top, outside in clubhead path.

Fix:
First fix everything that looks very obviously wrong, e.g. stance is aimed 40 yards open, spine angle vertical at address, head opposite left foot at address, etc. Then flatten left wrist at the top. This should result in hooks and pull hooks, especially if the student knows how to finish swivel properly. Then neutralise grip. Then fix the clubshaft at the top and startdown.

Originally Posted by tongzilla Typical profile of a good hacker:
Strong left hand grip, bent left wrist at the top, outside in clubhead path.

Fix:
First fix everything that looks very obviously wrong, e.g. stance is aimed 40 yards open, spine angle vertical at address, head opposite left foot at address, etc. Then flatten left wrist at the top. This should result in hooks and pull hooks, especially if the student knows how to finish swivel properly. Then neutralise grip. Then fix the clubshaft at the top and startdown.

hmmm...where did ya get that stuff from, tong?

was it your own research???......let me see your evidence that this works.....)

Originally Posted by Michael Finney hmmm...where did ya get that stuff from, tong?

was it your own research???......let me see your evidence that this works.....)

Just checking you guys are not

Originally Posted by mp33 I understand that if you have a problem with your swing you might need to change the clubface first.Now I have played and watched alot of golf and I have noticed a greater percentage of golfers with a severely shut clubface at the top then open.I would even say 85-90% and usually they slice the ball.
Nick Faldo says you can play pretty good golf with a open or square clubface but it becomes harder when the clubface is closed.
What does TGM think about this and how do you correct it? I think closed club you better not horizontal hinge but use angled.

I tried a closed at the Top Clubface years ago and couldn't hit the ball. Normally I need to have the Clubshaft leading perfectly and on the Sweetspot Plane to develop good lag and impact. My clubface would look a little open at the top.

I like a "Trevino face" for short clubs (Angled Hinge always)...crisper, lower trajectory.

"Hogan face" (more open) for long clubs (less hook prone)....(whatever Hinge I want).

Originally Posted by birdie_man I like a "Trevino face" for short clubs (Angled Hinge always)...crisper, lower trajectory.

Sure about that one?

(are you just joking with me??? Can't tell!! Disregard below if it's a yes....ackagabajhajhr! lol)

For me...

Esp. with wedges....

I mean....

Still experimenting some but right now it's what I do.

...

Jim...how bout I give you an answer in a few days....

(I do think it's better for wedges tho).

Originally Posted by birdie_man lower trajectory.

There, i'm being more specific...as i said:

are you sure?

Originally Posted by jim_0068 There, i'm being more specific...as i said:

are you sure?

Well not with a full-roll and/or a more back ball position I guess......

I just find it easier (for now).....esp. for wedges and half wedges.

...

BTW I know what you're thinking Jim!

Jim:.....(leakage)...

Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Because it sets up a Stroke wherein your Hands (and the Flat Right Wrist) lead the Club away from the Ball in Start Up. Similarly, the Hands (and the Flat Left Wrist) lead the Club through the Ball during Impact.


My question, Daryl:
At the risk of repeating myself, that is awesome! Yoda, along that same line of thinking, If I start a vertical hinge straight back from the ball (no incline) forcing my back shoulder (what feels to be) straight up, and come down hitting before layback without a swivel into a chicken wing, the ball flies straight and long. What is the proper TGM category to search for such a strange move? Would you say it is a really bad idea and suggest a better way for a newbie like me?

thanks,

Pat

Originally Posted by Daryl I tried a closed at the Top Clubface years ago and couldn't hit the ball. Normally I need to have the Clubshaft leading perfectly and on the Sweetspot Plane to develop good lag and impact. My clubface would look a little open at the top.

Originally Posted by innercityteacher If I start a vertical hinge straight back from the ball (no incline) forcing my back shoulder (what feels to be) straight up, and come down hitting before layback without a swivel into a chicken wing, the ball flies straight and long. What is the proper TGM category to search for such a strange move? Would you say it is a really bad idea and suggest a better way for a newbie like me?

First,,,it's not a "vertical Hinge"; it's a "Wrist Cock". Second, if the Wrist Cocks but does not Turn, it's called "Single Wrist Action".

In TGM Terminology, you are using a "Turning Shoulder Plane with Single Wrist Action", and combining that with a Leading Bent Left Elbow acting to Release and Steer the Secondary Lever.

You're asking me, if I Think that this procedure is a "really bad idea" and should you change your approach before wasting too much Time.

My answer is: it's a "really bad idea" and should you change your approach before wasting too much Time.

Use the above sketch (1-L) to see and understand the following characteristics of all Mechanically and Geometrically correct Golf Strokes - form the longest Drive to the Shortest Putt per Chapter 2. visualize this System as based on three all-encompassing Primary Concepts on which all details can easily be attached as the surface - they are the Hinge Action (2-G) of an Angular Motion (2-K) operating on an Inclined Plane (2-F).

Daryl, to quote an old gangster movie, "Johnny Dangerously," "Would you like some steaks? Lou, send him some steaks!"

I always wondered what a single wrist cock was! Daryl, pm me and I'll send you some Doritos! What is your favorite kind? Cool Ranch? Lime Surprise? You name it man and I'll Fed-ex a case to you!!!!!

Kevin, Jerry, OB, you all can have some Doritos!!!!!!


Bartender, Doritos and a cerveso for my friends!

Originally Posted by Daryl

First,,,it's not a "vertical Hinge"; it's a "Wrist Cock". Second, if the Wrist Cocks but does not Turn, it's called "Single Wrist Action".

In TGM Terminology, you are using a "Turning Shoulder Plane with Single Wrist Action", and combining that with a Leading Bent Left Elbow acting to Release and Steer the Secondary Lever.

You're asking me, if I Think that this procedure is a "really bad idea" and should you change your approach before wasting too much Time.

My answer is: it's a "really bad idea" and should you change your approach before wasting too much Time.

Originally Posted by birdie_man Well not with a full-roll and/or a more back ball position I guess......

I just find it easier (for now).....esp. for wedges and half wedges.

...

BTW I know what you're thinking Jim!

Jim:.....(leakage)...

Nope, by defination an angled hinge will fly higher than a horizontal hinge.

So if you find it easier to hit lower wedges with an angled hinge you probably have a delofted club through the ball, little axis tilt, and probably a back ball position. THOSE all facilitate the the lower ball flight than the angled hinge does.

Originally Posted by innercityteacher
I always wondered what a single wrist cock was!

Not "Single Wrist Cock". It's "Single Wrist Action".

Doritos: Plain

I like to ask a simple question. At impact isn't the clubface suppose to be shut or hooded? No one really mentions this, and I wonder this is the "hookface" HK is describing that is built in the irons?