Over the top cure?

Hi all, firstly thanks for a great site...

I'm fighting an over the top move in my downswing (on video my right shoulder moves *out* ever so slightly instead of *down*). This is enough to cause a shank in the short irons or pulls

After reading around here i know that the right shoulder has to go down, what is the best way to train this when you've been used to it going out for so long (been playing with it 15 years or more i guess) (again it's only a small move maybe an inch or so)

Drills etc more than welcome !!

Thanks

Originally Posted by smooth Hi all, firstly thanks for a great site...

I'm fighting an over the top move in my downswing (on video my right shoulder moves *out* ever so slightly instead of *down*). This is enough to cause a shank in the short irons or pulls

After reading around here i know that the right shoulder has to go down, what is the best way to train this when you've been used to it going out for so long (been playing with it 15 years or more i guess) (again it's only a small move maybe an inch or so)

Drills etc more than welcome !!

Thanks

Start by hitting shots with your toes up in the air.

I suspect from reading your post that your weight may be moving a tad too much from heel to toe during your startdown move, which results in the ensuing OTT.

Could also be not having a 2" hip slide allowing you hands to drop down on plane. Instead of having to go ott to get back to the ball and the throwaway that goes with it.

Originally Posted by comdpa Start by hitting shots with your toes up in the air.

I suspect from reading your post that your weight may be moving a tad too much from heel to toe during your startdown move, which results in the ensuing OTT.

The weight seems to be ok, it's just the initial 'spin out' move at the top... is only an inch or so that the right shoulder moves out instead of straight down.

The problem is i can't feel it happening so need to feel something different... knowing what you should do and doing it with a ball there is a challenge...

One drill that i have been doing is hitting balls with the right foot back - that is working well but as soon as i go back to my normal address position the spinning out starts a happenin...

Try not moving your head laterally in the transition. If you keep the head in roughly the same position as you were at the top you should move that right shoulder down-plane.

matt

Originally Posted by smooth
...One drill that i have been doing is hitting balls with the right foot back - that is working well but as soon as i go back to my normal address position the spinning out starts a happenin...

That is a pretty good indicator that you have a slight OTT.

Originally Posted by comdpa That is a pretty good indicator that you have a slight OTT.

Yep i rescue most of them with a slight pull. It's the ssshanks that are the killer when i have that slight OTT move and don't pull the hands in closer to the body

I've even resorted to hitting my short irons with the right foot back as per the drill - works ok but lost a couple of clubs worth of distance.

Any other drills or swing thoughts out there??

Originally Posted by comdpa Start by hitting shots with your toes up in the air.

OK, I've tried this but my head feels too close to the ground and I keep hitting everything fat. Am I doing something wrong?

Originally Posted by smooth Hi all, firstly thanks for a great site...

I'm fighting an over the top move in my downswing (on video my right shoulder moves *out* ever so slightly instead of *down*). This is enough to cause a shank in the short irons or pulls

After reading around here i know that the right shoulder has to go down, what is the best way to train this when you've been used to it going out for so long (been playing with it 15 years or more i guess) (again it's only a small move maybe an inch or so)

Drills etc more than welcome !!

Thanks

A couple additional areas to check at setup that can contribute

an overly wide stance

a left foot that is too 'square' to the line at address

A right forearm that is too high at address (bad grip)

Shoulder line open at address

All of these limit your ability to pivot properly.

Hit some shots with your feet together until you can stay in balance.

Originally Posted by EdZ A couple additional areas to check at setup that can contribute

an overly wide stance

a left foot that is too 'square' to the line at address

A right forearm that is too high at address (bad grip)

Shoulder line open at address

All of these limit your ability to pivot properly.

Hit some shots with your feet together until you can stay in balance.

Yep checked those things and all seem ok with mirror work e.g. left foot fanned, right forearm on plane. Seems i just can't get my mind to get the down instead of out...

Smooth:

Take an old shaft, with the head no longer on the end. Set up to the ball with a regular club as you normally would. HOld the regular club with your left hand and take the 'headless' shaft and place it into the ground paralell to your clubshaft angle...kind of like this \\. I have done this while hitting balls. Although the two shafts can be about 6" apart, the visual looking down appears as though the shaft are really close. It always help me (first in slow motion) feel what needs to be done to get 'under' the headless shaft. If I don't get under...WHACK...into the headless shaft. It doesn't hurt or ruin your club, just makes a loud sound!

Only ohter thing I've done to help is (again first in slo mo) go the the top and just as you start down, feel as though you do a right shoulder shrug (as in weight lifting) before going back down. In essence, it feels as though you roll your right shoulder back....

FL-John

The first thing you probably need to do is fix your club face. Comming OTT is a reaction to a club face that if not square when the ball leaves it at separation; "Too Open". Most likely because of a left hand that is out of position to begin with; "Rotated Too Far Counter-Clockwise with your left thumb on top of the grip". Try rotating your Left hand clockwise with your left thumb on the aft side of the grip (Strong Single Action 10-2-B)or until the ball no longer goes right.

Then read the following thread in regard to the Role of the Right Shoulder in the Emergency Room Swingers section:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=3048

Once you understand how the Right Shoulder works, if you start hitting behind the ball, you need understand how a Swinger uses and doesn't use the Right Arm. A Transfer of Momentum (CF) will uncock the Swingers Left Wrist and Right Elbow, both are passive, but never whippy. No need to push with the Right Arm. If you do, you will need to keep your eyes closed at Impact or wear glasses, because they will be filled with dirt.

Originally Posted by drewitgolf The first thing you probably need to do is fix your club face.

ahhaaaa.....good stuff, drew....

I had a really tough time solving this one as well. I became rather succesful with the solution.

This problem personally for me is caused by , "The impulse to drive the ball squarely FORWARD towards the target" thus the right shoulder wants to participate in a way unfavourable. And the solution , 2-N-0 Underpitch must be present to prevent Roundhousing. learning to let the shoulder stay back and down .

I solved it as per Comdpa personal suggestion to learn to feel to square a tennis racket on a horizontal path. keeping the shoulder back and down.

Also As per Yoda , perform this as drill: 10-5-E close close stance, Strong double action wrist, In to Out path, Cut shot. Post. Did alot of those. took me a while to understand why yoda suggested this too.

So the objective is to get the more " out down and replace the incorrect forward impact with the correct ones ... 3 dimensinal impact.

Smooth,
I had the same problem; pulling the short irons only. Turns out that I was bending the left wrist at impact (ok, the problem that most ams have). This after a year of working hard on FLW and BRW. But, in my case (and maybe yours) it was because the short irons are the heaviest, and therefore the breakdown becomes "easier". Also, (again in my case) because we think "it's just a wedge" we sometimes don't finish the swing, and quit. What finally worked wonders for me was to make sure I finished the swing, along with a determined roll of the left forearm, a horizontal hinge.
Tom

Study 3F7A.

Originally Posted by smooth Hi all, firstly thanks for a great site...

I'm fighting an over the top move in my downswing (on video my right shoulder moves *out* ever so slightly instead of *down*). This is enough to cause a shank in the short irons or pulls

After reading around here i know that the right shoulder has to go down, what is the best way to train this when you've been used to it going out for so long (been playing with it 15 years or more i guess) (again it's only a small move maybe an inch or so)

Drills etc more than welcome !!

Thanks

I’ve read through all the posts in this thread and see that nobody has really addressed the root cause. OTT is caused by inadequate weight transfer. With the feet touching (as a drill for balance) OTT is almost impossible. Once the feet are separated, we have two axes (plural of axis) to deal with, the backswing axis over the right foot, and the downswing axis over the left foot, separated by the weightSHIFT. Starting the downswing over the wrong axis invariably leads to OTT and other problems.

Originally Posted by Weightshift I’ve read through all the posts in this thread and see that nobody has really addressed the root cause. OTT is caused by inadequate weight transfer.

What's the root cause of the "inadequate weight transfer"?

anyone?....
Bueller?

Originally Posted by Michael Finney What's the root cause of the "inadequate weight transfer"?

anyone?....
Bueller?

Inadequate knowledge of the golf swing

Look at this weight transfer!

Originally Posted by Michael Finney What's the root cause of the "inadequate weight transfer"?

anyone?....
Bueller?

What is it Mike?

Originally Posted by tongzilla What is it Mike?

An "inadequate weight transfer" is a golfer's sometimes futile attempt to get the ball to start more to the left because he has an OPEN CLUBFACE......

as root causes go, the OPEN CLUBFACE at separation is a blockbuster...and the cause of most of the "ungolflike" motions on the driving ranges near you.....but you already knew that, leo...didn't you?

Originally Posted by Michael Finney An "inadequate weight transfer" is a golfer's sometimes futile attempt to get the ball to start more to the left because he has an OPEN CLUBFACE......

as root causes go, the OPEN CLUBFACE at separation is a blockbuster...and the cause of most of the "ungolflike" motions on the driving ranges near you.....but you already knew that, leo...didn't you?

Thanks Mike...I get it. Seems like almost everything has to do with the clubface.

Originally Posted by Weightshift I’ve read through all the posts in this thread and see that nobody has really addressed the root cause. OTT is caused by inadequate weight transfer. With the feet touching (as a drill for balance) OTT is almost impossible. Once the feet are separated, we have two axes (plural of axis) to deal with, the backswing axis over the right foot, and the downswing axis over the left foot, separated by the weightSHIFT. Starting the downswing over the wrong axis invariably leads to OTT and other problems.

When i use the 'right foot back' drill i don't come OTT - i'm thinking because i can see a nice big alley way from the top back down to the ball (i.e. right hip is not in the way). Is this still related to weightshift? i think my OTT is subconciously avoiding the elbow/hip collision because i'm definately not intending on doing it.

When i think about the pivot or weightshift however i tend to get to much swaying and leg drive going on....

Originally Posted by smooth When i use the 'right foot back' drill i don't come OTT - i'm thinking because i can see a nice big alley way from the top back down to the ball (i.e. right hip is not in the way). Is this still related to weightshift? i think my OTT is subconciously avoiding the elbow/hip collision because i'm definately not intending on doing it.

When i think about the pivot or weightshift however i tend to get to much swaying and leg drive going on....

You have to approach this problem in baby steps. Try the feet-together-drill with Pitching Wedge to Driver, then short chip shots with the irons, slowly increasing stance width. It's not something that's going to happen overnight

Originally Posted by Weightshift You have to approach this problem in baby steps. Try the feet-together-drill with Pitching Wedge to Driver, then short chip shots with the irons, slowly increasing stance width. It's not something that's going to happen overnight

Hey weightshift

Some good thoughts there. Many people (teachers and students) have said how wonderful they hit the ball when their feet are together. I would like to expand on this drill with some thoughts to try and help him a little further, and what it concerns is that of moving the head - bobbing and swaying.

However people rely on their crutch of swaying and are thus lazy to fully pivot.... When they are told to keep a stationary head usually they don't pivot because it takes an effort, then golf instructors in their efforts to get results quick, tell them to move it back...etc etc.

Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead...etc etc all emphasise it in their literature with the stationary head as the ideal. Jack Nicklaus called it golfs unarguable fundamental. It amazes me looking back when I was learning to play a bit when was a kid from books, that I would listen to a teacher like leadbetter and others over sources of the best players....

Weight shift is a result of the hip motion under the stationary head and its not a big huge thing. Good golfers can't lift their left foot off the ground for example....

Originally Posted by Mathew Hey weightshift

Some good thoughts there. Many people (teachers and students) have said how wonderful they hit the ball when their feet are together. I would like to expand on this drill with some thoughts to try and help him a little further, and what it concerns is that of moving the head - bobbing and swaying.

However people rely on their crutch of swaying and are thus lazy to fully pivot.... When they are told to keep a stationary head usually they don't pivot because it takes an effort, then golf instructors in their efforts to get results quick, tell them to move it back...etc etc.

Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead...etc etc all emphasise it in their literature with the stationary head as the ideal. Jack Nicklaus called it golfs unarguable fundamental. It amazes me looking back when I was learning to play a bit when was a kid from books, that I would listen to a teacher like leadbetter and others over sources of the best players....

Weight shift is a result of the hip motion under the stationary head and its not a big huge thing. Good golfers can't lift their left foot off the ground for example....

Hi Mathew.
Yoda wrote (in another thread): "In my own case, unless I consciously monitor the situation -- which I rarely do -- I am totally unaware of the degree of Hip Slide. However, at one time I worked pretty hard on that Component and still do emphasize its 'parallel to the Plane Line' motion when I practice my Lag Loading via Downstroke Waggles. And here, there is enough lateral motion to transfer the Weight to the left side as the Body begins to Pull the Arms and Hands toward their Impact Locations."

Originally Posted by smooth Hi all, firstly thanks for a great site...

I'm fighting an over the top move in my downswing (on video my right shoulder moves *out* ever so slightly instead of *down*). This is enough to cause a shank in the short irons or pulls

After reading around here i know that the right shoulder has to go down, what is the best way to train this when you've been used to it going out for so long (been playing with it 15 years or more i guess) (again it's only a small move maybe an inch or so)

Drills etc more than welcome !!

Thanks

You either "load and sustain the lag" or "move the right shoulder down", which is gonna "keep the right shoulder on-plane or down".

Originally Posted by drewitgolf The first thing you probably need to do is fix your club face. Comming OTT is a reaction to a club face that if not square when the ball leaves it at separation; "Too Open". Most likely because of a left hand that is out of position to begin with; "Rotated Too Far Counter-Clockwise with your left thumb on top of the grip". Try rotating your Left hand clockwise with your left thumb on the aft side of the grip (Strong Single Action 10-2-B)or until the ball no longer goes right.

Then read the following thread in regard to the Role of the Right Shoulder in the Emergency Room Swingers section:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=3048

Once you understand how the Right Shoulder works, if you start hitting behind the ball, you need understand how a Swinger uses and doesn't use the Right Arm. A Transfer of Momentum (CF) will uncock the Swingers Left Wrist and Right Elbow, both are passive, but never whippy. No need to push with the Right Arm. If you do, you will need to keep your eyes closed at Impact or wear glasses, because they will be filled with dirt.

I've got a strong single action grip with the left thumb on the aft of the shaft... never hit a slice or fade in my life all the bad ones are pulls or pull hooks. Probably been aiming too far right in the past and then pull hooking it back to the target. Never ever ever any left to right movement of the ball....

I know the moment i come OTT that it's either going to be a slight pull, pull hook or shank......... I know what the right shoulder *should* be doing... it's just how to re-program the computer and i've yet to find anything that seems to make a difference when the ball is sitting there.....

Sorry don't want to sound ungrateful and all the answers so far are much appreciated.. just frustrating !!

Clubhead was movin up there.

Originally Posted by Mathew Hey weightshift

...Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead...etc etc all emphasise it in their literature with the stationary head as the ideal. Jack Nicklaus called it golfs unarguable fundamental....
Weight shift is a result of the hip motion under the stationary head and its not a big huge thing. Good golfers can't lift their left foot off the ground for example....

A stationary head is an ideal... correct? Hogan's head was not fixed ...it moved a little back on the backswing and forward and down on the downswing transition. Maybe it was stationary relative to the rest of his body motion during the backswing to downswing transition.

Originally Posted by smooth Any other drills or swing thoughts out there??

These have worked for me...

hit some balls over the first/second baseman's head

balance - make sure you're not on your toes, especially as you start down

quiet hips, especially the right hip. think slide instead turn. really, just stay out of the way of the shoulder and right arm.

Try thinking about what your right shoulder is doing, if it goes out first (like a baseball swing), you can't help but be OTT. Somebody recently posted a nice drill where you place a long club across your shoulders with the club head out to the right (for a righty), then try to hit the ball. You'll miss the ball, but you'll be able to see the correct right shoulder plane.