Chip, Pitch, Punch ... What's Next?

I seem to be running into the brick wall that usually causes me to take 6 months (sometimes more like a year or so) off from golf. I've been to Carmel and taken a handful of lessons from Ben and, as of about a couple years ago (thanks, in no small part, to Brian Manzella's "Confessions of a Former Flipper" as well as the 12 or so hours that I've spent with Ben), I'm finally able to hit the chip/pitch/punch shots with a nice flat wrist. I can feel that I'm compressing the ball quite nicely. I'm able to hit these shots with the 3 different hinge actions, which is really great around the greens because now I feel confident to hit it however I need to when I'm 75 yards and in (high, low, etc).

However ... and this is where the problem starts ... I can't seem to translate the mechanics of these short shots into a full swing, which means I get way more opportunities than I'd like to hit those little shots around the greens. On these short shots, for example, I'm standing much closer to the ball and typically hitting a wedge (which is short by comparison). I'm not taking the club all the way back, so my hands are never really getting too high. When I get a longer club in my hand, or even if I'm still hitting a wedge, but now setting up for a full swing, I just don't have the same feeling. I don't feel like I have anything resembling an extension of the same backswing, and I most certainly don't feel like my downswing is is ANY sort of extended version of the downswing I take with the chip/pitch/punch (or even the "pitch-punch", as Ben likes to teach). It's really frustrating because, while I'm out in the school yard with my shag bag, hitting these chip/pitch/punch shots, the casual observer may accidentally mistake me for a pretty good golfer. However, once I take a full swing, anything that I think I know goes right out the window and I may, or may not, hit a good shot.

So now, here I am again, thinking that the best way for me to fix my game would be to take a couple weeks off ... then quit altogether!

Am I the only one who struggles with going beyond the short shots and extending them into full swings? If not, and I do hope I'm not alone, what do people do to get beyond where I am?

I don't know how much help this would be but if you download and watch the Collin Neeman video lesson with Yoda, you will see Collin work his way through all the basic motions: chip, pitch, punch and then punch with swivel and so on.
This might help you find the next step up or bridge the gap from the short shots to full shots.
Alex

Originally Posted by Jimmy I seem to be running into the brick wall that usually causes me to take 6 months (sometimes more like a year or so) off from golf. I've been to Carmel and taken a handful of lessons from Ben and, as of about a couple years ago (thanks, in no small part, to Brian Manzella's "Confessions of a Former Flipper" as well as the 12 or so hours that I've spent with Ben), I'm finally able to hit the chip/pitch/punch shots with a nice flat wrist. I can feel that I'm compressing the ball quite nicely. I'm able to hit these shots with the 3 different hinge actions, which is really great around the greens because now I feel confident to hit it however I need to when I'm 75 yards and in (high, low, etc).

However ... and this is where the problem starts ... I can't seem to translate the mechanics of these short shots into a full swing, which means I get way more opportunities than I'd like to hit those little shots around the greens. On these short shots, for example, I'm standing much closer to the ball and typically hitting a wedge (which is short by comparison). I'm not taking the club all the way back, so my hands are never really getting too high. When I get a longer club in my hand, or even if I'm still hitting a wedge, but now setting up for a full swing, I just don't have the same feeling. I don't feel like I have anything resembling an extension of the same backswing, and I most certainly don't feel like my downswing is is ANY sort of extended version of the downswing I take with the chip/pitch/punch (or even the "pitch-punch", as Ben likes to teach). It's really frustrating because, while I'm out in the school yard with my shag bag, hitting these chip/pitch/punch shots, the casual observer may accidentally mistake me for a pretty good golfer. However, once I take a full swing, anything that I think I know goes right out the window and I may, or may not, hit a good shot.

So now, here I am again, thinking that the best way for me to fix my game would be to take a couple weeks off ... then quit altogether!

Am I the only one who struggles with going beyond the short shots and extending them into full swings? If not, and I do hope I'm not alone, what do people do to get beyond where I am?

My guess is that you are disturbing your alignments once you move from a chip/pitch to a full shot.

It is, and I know from bitter experience, all to easy to add right wrist bend and to cock the right wrist as well as double cocking the left wrist, in the (over extended) backswing of a full shot. It then becomes a real, and unequal, struggle to regain your flying wedge set up alignments on the downswing.

Try to limit the length of your backswing - your hands do not need to go above right shoulder height, think compact, - and see how you fare.

Originally Posted by Jimmy Am I the only one who struggles with going beyond the short shots and extending them into full swings? If not, and I do hope I'm not alone, what do people do to get beyond where I am?

Jimmy, I'm having the same problem, and thought I was the only one who couldn't translate what I see in the Gallery videos to my own swing.

After a 16 year absence from golf, I started playing again last April. My game has slowly deteriorated since then, which sent me to the Internet to see if I could find help for my swing. That's how I ended up joining this forum.

I have developed lots of confidence in my short game because of the basic motion video clips. But, I have not been able to progress to the acquired and total motion phases yet.

I have no intention of giving up golf, though. I hope to make this my retirement hobby. But, I do understand your frustration, and I'll be interested in seeing if we can make some progress with our swings!

While I wouldn't wish it on anyone, I have to admit I'm glad to hear that I'm not the lone ranger.

I had a bit of a break through. I actually said something in my original post that got me thinking, then I saw something in the video that someone else suggested in this thread that confirmed that maybe I was on to something. Basically, I had the motion pretty well down with little pitch (and chip, punch, etc) shots from a very compact address where I was choked down on a wedge and standing close to the ball. The problem was when I started out at address as if I were going to take a full swing. I had the "down" motion but, since I was standing very close to the ball hitting those little shots, I hadn't really gotten the feel for the "out" motion since there is very little "out" motion with those little shots (by comparison to a full swing). So what I did was, I went out to the school yard yesterday and begun trying to hit the same little shots, but this time I would address the ball as if I were going to take a full swing (not choked down and standing the same distance from the ball that I would on a full swing). After hitting a couple hundred balls I was hitting the shots just as well as I would before from the choked-down/close to the ball address. I went to the driving range today and all of a sudden I have hope! After a while I was striking the ball so well that I surprised myself. I was really compressing the ball. Even the sound it made was something I hadn't heard from any of my golf shots before. So, just for the heck of it, I started putting the ball in my divots and hitting it from there and, I'll be honest, I couldn't tell much of a difference from the shots that I hit off the nice grass. I was really happy with the way that I hit them today.

So, I don't know if you're having the same problem in where you're hitting the chip/pitch/punch shots well but can't take that to a full swing, but I really think I might have taken the first step in the right direction and, for me, that was to start hitting those shots from a full-swing address position.

I'll post again next week when I'm fed up and about to quit again.

Originally Posted by profdan Jimmy, I'm having the same problem, and thought I was the only one who couldn't translate what I see in the Gallery videos to my own swing.

After a 16 year absence from golf, I started playing again last April. My game has slowly deteriorated since then, which sent me to the Internet to see if I could find help for my swing. That's how I ended up joining this forum.

I have developed lots of confidence in my short game because of the basic motion video clips. But, I have not been able to progress to the acquired and total motion phases yet.

I have no intention of giving up golf, though. I hope to make this my retirement hobby. But, I do understand your frustration, and I'll be interested in seeing if we can make some progress with our swings!

Keep on working at it. It takes time to unlearn the bad habit of flipping and steering. Those small shots are the gateway.

Once you are ready, move to stage 2 which is "acquired motion". These are larger strokes but not full strokes. Your right forearm doesn't go beyond parallel to the ground on the backstroke and your left arm does not go beyond parallel on the follow through.
As Burner mentioned, you can see this in the Collin videos.

Train your hands to lead the clubhead all the way into the followthrough. At the completion of your stroke, the hands are still leading the clubhead and you are about to begin the finish swivel. But you will save that for the full stroke.

This is a great program that Homer Kelley left us and one of the best ways to get over our bad habits.

Bagger

Originally Posted by Jimmy So, I don't know if you're having the same problem in where you're hitting the chip/pitch/punch shots well but can't take that to a full swing, but I really think I might have taken the first step in the right direction and, for me, that was to start hitting those shots from a full-swing address position.

I'll post again next week when I'm fed up and about to quit again.

Thanks for the update, Jimmy, and congrats on your progress.

I've always performed the basic motion as if I was going to take a full swing. The only thing I try to accomplish is "two feet back, two feet through," keeping the flying wedges in tact to end of follow-through.

So, I'm wondering if my difficulties with progressing aren't related to my addressing the ball: 1. Do I tilt my spine enough? I'll have to experiment with this.

A second area of concern relates to my take away for the acquired motion phase: 1. Do I take my right arm back too far before raising the right forearm straight up to get to the horizontal position? and/or 2. Do I take too much of a pivot (right shoulder and hip turn)? Am I already off plane so that the downswing is doomed before it even starts?

Lastly, I'm also wondering about properly performing the downswing. Did you consciously use an aiming point for your right flying wedge on the downswing during your recent practices? I've noticed in one of Yoda's videos (dowels/delivery path) how he establishes the two practice points for tracing the right hand during the total motion. I can't find any info on whether this tracing starts already in the acquired motion stage. And the Yoda/Colin Neeman clip doesn't mention this.

At any rate, I'm really happy to see you're back in the game, and look forward to your next positive update.

Jimmy,I've watched every video on this forum,and the best one to help you with your problem is the Holies and polies video.Watch it and listen to Lynn.Do what he says,then once you have control with your right hand an arm,just put your left hand on the club for yhe ride,making the same swing.A great,great video.Thanks Lynn,for all your work on this site. PS, Its payed for a new set of clubs for me this year and i'm not a big gambler.Its not easy to learn to control the right arm swing,but once you do your on your way.