What do you think?...cast your votes
State your facts and or opinions behind your vote....
Remember this a Full Stroke question!!!!
I picked the last one....gut feeling. (and it esp. makes sense with a cross-line hip slide)
Originally Posted by annikan skywalker
What do you think?...cast your votes
State your facts and or opinions behind your vote....
Remember this a Full Stroke question!!!!
If your Head remains steady, and your Feet planted, and your Hips move left or right, then your spine angle changes.
Itsa hunch!
But...trajectory changes require adjustments in lateral bending between sternum and stable head,and slopes require adjustments in the lower part of the spine for stability,
ball flight changes utilize waist bend adjustments,
power, lag pressure require rotational differences.
On the right track??
I choose 2 . Because i feel that the trailing leg/knees is a thrust board, at the end of the backswing the thrustboard "readied" the momentum for your pivot to thrust(slide forward) in the start up. The spine angle should not shift much or at all in the backswing. even though your hip turn excessively, your spine angle should not differ much.
However in the downswing. an axis tilt is required to move the shoulder down plane. Thus its the only time that the spine shift occur.
However It is possible for the spine to be moved in the backswing or through swing. Like for example if the trailing knee straightens during the backswing. if that the case you will have a hint of reverse pivot.
Does the spine angle remain the same throughout the entire motion of a full stroke? I think not. The spine angle alters with axis tilt induced by hip motion which Tomasello contends is caused by lowering the right shoulder. Therefore #2.
I feel that down the line the spine angle should remain the same but not face on.
He must be talking about down the line tho, no?
Cause we all know about Axis Tilt....
...
I don't think Homer (for example) ever talked about "maintaining your spine angle" tho....
Originally Posted by Millrat
I feel that down the line the spine angle should remain the same but not face on.
Really... At first glance...perhaps....maybe looking at it from a different perspective might help to reevaluate....
Which Plane?
All
3 Planes...Lateral(frontal),Anteroposterior(sagittal ), and Transverse(horizontal)
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
What in the world just happened. . .
Another LBG first.
I'm not going to "touch" this one.
Seriously though, the plane descriptions are helpful. I think.
Bagger
Originally Posted by birdie_man
I don't think Homer (for example) ever talked about "maintaining your spine angle" tho....
He wouldn't have to if the head remains steady and the eyes are fixed on the ball. The eyes would, as Lynn teaches, monitor any movement off the ball.
Homer does write about the four snares- bobbing being one of them.
But what Annika will explain is that
while the head remains steady- the spine adjusts itself during the pivot.
AND... you would never know it until you see/understand how this study explains what the spine does in a pivot. Another notch in our development of knowing what the golf swing is all about.
Get big chested !
The 4 sections change. Something to do with Pitch, Yaw and Roll, if I remember one of Annikans earlier posts correctly.
The spinal column is rotating in a diagonal or oblique plane which is a combination of those great pics!.
Correction.- Axis of a diagonal or oblique plane.
My vote is for #4.
I think from down the line view many like to draw a straight line to represent the spine and its angle. And I think, no real knowledge that although that is nice and maintaining the angle from down the line seems to make sense to me, the spine is not a straight line and in order to accomodate rotation and shifting, parts must be in motion.
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
What in the world just happened. . .
I'd vote this into the all time greatest post on this forum! I've gotta stop laughing to catch my breath!
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
What in the world just happened. . .
I think he said if you have an apple you can cut it three ways.
The way I understand this is... there ideally is little, if any change in the angle of the TORSO when one is bent over the ball, and throughout the Stroke. There is no BOB or SWAY. The different parts of the SPINE(cervical, thoracic, lumbar, sacral)however, DO CHANGE during a swing.
Tiger Woods, and Adam Scott would be obvious examples of this. Their cervical and thoracic angles obviously change from their Address angles, but the overall TORSO angles are very much the same as at Address.
Lagster..Nice Post!!!
Looks like the 4 sections of the spine experiencing changes to maintain a steady pivot center is kickin arse...Wonder why?
Because of your education!!!!.
You let the cat out of the bag too often before the poll. Should've had it before all the Pivot Wars began!!.
Originally Posted by annikan skywalker
Looks like the 4 sections of the spine experiencing changes to maintain a steady pivot center is kickin arse...Wonder why?
annikan- can you please explain how the 4 sections of the spine precisely change in relation to the 3 planes throughout the swing (for eg: by the halfway point in the backswing the cervical has ------ relative to the lateral plane, -------- relative to the sagittal and ------- with respect to the transvere, while the thoracic has ... etc.) to maintain the steady pivot center. thanks.
Let's start with one section at a time.....then later we'll put it all together!!!
1. Neck...Cervical Spine
2. Upper Back...Thoracic Spine
3. Lower Back...Lumbar Spine
4. Pelvis...Sacrum
Which one?
I'd start at one end or the other!!!!
Originally Posted by annikan skywalker
Let's start with one section at a time.....then later we'll put it all together!!!
1. Neck...Cervical Spine
2. Upper Back...Thoracic Spine
3. Lower Back...Lumbar Spine
4. Pelvis...Sacrum
Which one?
I'd start at one end or the other!!!!
Is #4 what the dude in the picture has going on? Hey dude . . . NICE SACRUM!!!
Originally Posted by annikan skywalker
Let's start with one section at a time.....then later we'll put it all together!!!
1. Neck...Cervical Spine
2. Upper Back...Thoracic Spine
3. Lower Back...Lumbar Spine
4. Pelvis...Sacrum
Which one?
I'd start at one end or the other!!!!
ok, cervical or sacrum whichever you feel is the better starting point ...
LATERAL SAGITTAL TRANSVERSE
address
startup
backstroke
top
startdown
delivery
release
impact
follow-through
finish
[quote=annikan skywalker]Really... At first glance...perhaps....maybe looking at it from a different perspective might help to reevaluate....
In reality the spine is never in a perfect straight line condition. What I was meaning to convey (and others have subsequently) that the lowest point of the spine and the uppermost point remain in the same place and if a line was drawn through those two points, that would represent the spine angle (someone mentioned torso angle that better represents the idea IMO).
First of all ...we are all built differently than each other....But I fel we should work from the bottom...let's just study the Pelvis and the sacrum first...
Notice the Neutral Postion of the pelvis is approximatley 30 degrees..
Let's first discusst the motion of the pelvic girdle with Anterior Rotation and Posterior Rotation of a NON Golfer...
then let's applly this to a golfer...throughout the next few weeks we will begin to discuss each segment in each plane and it's axis of rotation through each section as suggested by djd...so we will move slowly....so noone gets lost....
Question #1. Anterior Rotation(Forward) of the Pelvis affects the Lumbar Spine Motion and the left and right hip in what manner?
Anterior Rotation Extension of the Lumbar spine....Flexion at the right and left hip respectively.....Anyone know what that looks like..Pick A, B, C, D, or E
Rule #1
We will use markers on each of the major joints and draw plane and axis of rotation.(As indicated by the red dots and yellow lines)
Rule #2
We will use a "qualitative approach which describes the motion as opposed to a quantitative approach which is measured to the degree of motion. ( for instance slight amount of flexion
rather than 10 degrees of flexion)
Rule #3
Different types of stroke patterns have similar but in some cases different movements
Rule #4
We will work through this one segment and section at a time
Rule #5
I do not have All the answers...So if there are any experts in the field of Kinesiology or similar field...feel free to contribute insight...
Most important rule...let's have some fun
So let's look closer...
Here's the rule
Apply the rule
Sam's PELVIC ANGLE appears to be about the same as the CLUBSHAFT ANGLE. His EYES appear to be on an angle where they can easily locate the ball.
Originally Posted by lagster
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Let's keep this thing going! Is the Spine a Stationary Post, or just the HEAD that is Stationary?
In order for the head (or the spot between the shoulder blades, whatever you use) to maintain the level it had at address, the spine has to bend laterally as it rotates. Try this (and be careful!). Take your address position with your head against the wall. Now, with your arms across your chest rotate your shoulders into the backswing. In order to maintain your spine angle, you have to contract your left obliques (the muscles hidden by the love handles). These are the muscles that bend the spine to the left side. Now rotate into the downswing until the chest faces the target. The obliques on the other side should contract. Still not convinced? If you have a decent back, keep turning your body (you'll have to move your feet, but keep your head glued to the wall), until your shoulders are parallel to the target line, this time facing the opposite direction as you were at address. In order to hit this position while maintaining the spine angle, the back needs to be almost hyper extended.
What's my point in all this? Even if you disregard hip slide (which adds another element of spinal movement), the irony is that in order to maintain the forward bend angle of the spine to the ground, the spine itself is in constant motion. This is necessary because the spine isn't a straight rod, it's curved (even in guys like Adam Scott
). This is why so many golfers have back problems. It's the nature of the beast. We weren't made to play golf.
Originally Posted by Bigwill
In order for the head (or the spot between the shoulder blades, whatever you use) to maintain the level it had at address, the spine has to bend laterally as it rotates. Try this (and be careful!). Take your address position with your head against the wall. Now, with your arms across your chest rotate your shoulders into the backswing. In order to maintain your spine angle, you have to contract your left obliques (the muscles hidden by the love handles). These are the muscles that bend the spine to the left side. Now rotate into the downswing until the chest faces the target. The obliques on the other side should contract. Still not convinced? If you have a decent back, keep turning your body (you'll have to move your feet, but keep your head glued to the wall), until your shoulders are parallel to the target line, this time facing the opposite direction as you were at address. In order to hit this position while maintaining the spine angle, the back needs to be almost hyper extended.
What's my point in all this? Even if you disregard hip slide (which adds another element of spinal movement), the irony is that in order to maintain the forward bend angle of the spine to the ground, the spine itself is in constant motion. This is necessary because the spine isn't a straight rod, it's curved (even in guys like Adam Scott ). This is why so many golfers have back problems. It's the nature of the beast. We weren't made to play golf.
Nice post.
While waiting on Annikan's return I prepared an outline of his posts to date on this subject. Would appreciate any corrections.
DRW
#1-Does the spine stay the same throughout the entire stroke?
#9-Evaluation is helped by examining the lateral (frontal), Anteroposterior (sagittal) and Transverse (horizontal) planes.
#20-Four sections of the spine change to maintain a steady pivot center
#23-Four sections of the spine are:
*Neck-Cervical
*Upper back-Thoracic
*Lower back-Lumbar
*Pelvis-Sacrum
#27-First study Pelvic and the Sacrum.....neutral position of pelvis is approximately 30 degrees.
-Anterior rotation (forward) of the Pelvis affects Lumbar motion.....Flexion at the right and left hip.
-next few weeks...move slowly.....so none gets lost.
#28-Use a qualitative instead of a quantitative approach.....describe instead of measure the motion.
-Use markers of major joints and draw plane and axis of rotation (red dots and yellow lines).
-have some fun.
#34-Rules of Structural Kinesiology in TGM photos
#35-What does the new joint locations (red dots) say about the motion of each spine section (black lines) and planes (yellow lines).
#36-The inclination of the torso is not the spine angle
-study segment angles.
#37-How does angle changes affect spine movement?
-Obvious that leg action influences the Sacral and Lumbar movements but what about other segments?
#43-open your eyes and minds....language is universal in Academia.
#47-Questions:
*What changes axis of rotation
*Does hip slide change axis tilt in more than one plane
*How does axis tilt affect the spine segments
*Does Flat Shoulder Turn and RST have different affects on the spine segments.
#48-Learn 6 simple movement in 3 different planes:
*Rotate clockwise and counter-clockwise
*Bend forward and extend back
*Bend to the right and to the left
#51-A basic description of the pelvis
#63-Throughout the swing lumbar spine changes are very slight-major changes are after the rise through impact.
#66/77-Thoracic spine changes more with a RST than with Flat....because the Shoulder Turn component is different....more flexion in neck and upper spine....in order to maintain visual centers of balance and rotation.
#72-study the colored lines
-Does the Thoracic segment bend right or left of the Lumbar segment when viewed at address, Top and Follow Through?
-If you dont see it....Ill understand.
What are some IMAGES, FEELS, DRILLS, ETC.... have you found helpful for students to learn a proper PIVOT(Zone 1 in TGM)? I realize there can be some differences for certain trajectories, and intentional draws and fades, so let's start with a Standard STRAIGHT SHOT PIVOT. (KEEP IN MIND THE THEME OF THIS THREAD... TORSO and SPINE)
Originally Posted by lagster
What are some IMAGES, FEELS, DRILLS, ETC.... have you found helpful for students to learn a proper PIVOT(Zone 1 in TGM)? I realize there can be some differences for certain trajectories, and intentional draws and fades, so let's start with a Standard STRAIGHT SHOT PIVOT. (KEEP IN MIND THE THEME OF THIS THREAD... TORSO and SPINE)
Fold arms across chest, get in golf posture, imagine you are going to break down a door/wall just to your left with the back of your left shoulder. Now get that same feel with a steady head. Feel the motion from the feet.
