Horizontal Hinging Basics

cometgolfer
OK... searched the forums and the book with no luck, but this may still be a very basic question (don't mean to be a "lazy TGMer").

WHY is horizontal hinging the natural hinge action for a swinger? I am trying to become a true automatic release swinger but..... I still feel I hit too many shots that have an angled hinge to them.

If I drag load down the inclined plane and my spine maintains it's angled relationship to the ground (i.e. I don't come "up and out" of the shot), why is CF not trying to simply release the club on that angled plane? I can see why you would have HH action if you were standing vertically to the ground, but why is the same hinging in effect while you're bent over in your golfing posture?

I understand the hinge motions but I'm struggling with this concept... particularly as I try to let the swinging motion be totally controlled by CF.

Don't mean to get too basic here... thus why I started the thread where I did.

Thanks,

CG
comdpa
Originally Posted by cometgolfer OK... searched the forums and the book with no luck, but this may still be a very basic question (don't mean to be a "lazy TGMer").

WHY is horizontal hinging the natural hinge action for a swinger? I am trying to become a true automatic release swinger but..... I still feel I hit too many shots that have an angled hinge to them.

If I drag load down the inclined plane and my spine maintains it's angled relationship to the ground (i.e. I don't come "up and out" of the shot), why is CF not trying to simply release the club on that angled plane? I can see why you would have HH action if you were standing vertically to the ground, but why is the same hinging in effect while you're bent over in your golfing posture?

I understand the hinge motions but I'm struggling with this concept... particularly as I try to let the swinging motion be totally controlled by CF.

Don't mean to get too basic here... thus why I started the thread where I did.

Thanks,

CG
Per 6-B-3-0, "With true Throw-Out Action (no manual Clubface manipulation), Centrifugal Force automatically aligns the Clubshaft and Clubface for Horizontal Hinging..."

To prove this to yourself, tie a clubhead to a piece of string and spin around.

When the string and clubface are aligned, note how the clubhead looks...you will be surprised.
cometgolfer
Originally Posted by comdpa Per 6-B-3-0, "With true Throw-Out Action (no manual Clubface manipulation), Centrifugal Force automatically aligns the Clubshaft and Clubface for Horizontal Hinging..."

To prove this to yourself, tie a clubhead to a piece of string and spin around.

When the string and clubface are aligned, note how the clubhead looks...you will be surprised.
Comp,

Thanks for the reference to 6-B-3-0. I'm now looking to see how I can tie a string safely to a clubhead and try that experiment. Seems like I recall a pic of Yoda with Lynn and some other GSED's in which he was doing that very thing.

CG
comdpa
Originally Posted by cometgolfer Comp,

Thanks for the reference to 6-B-3-0. I'm now looking to see how I can tie a string safely to a clubhead and try that experiment. Seems like I recall a pic of Yoda with Lynn and some other GSED's in which he was doing that very thing.

CG
CG,

You are absolutely right on that. I tried to search for that picture for you, but to no avail.
cometgolfer
Originally Posted by comdpa Per 6-B-3-0, "With true Throw-Out Action (no manual Clubface manipulation), Centrifugal Force automatically aligns the Clubshaft and Clubface for Horizontal Hinging..."

To prove this to yourself, tie a clubhead to a piece of string and spin around.

When the string and clubface are aligned, note how the clubhead looks...you will be surprised.
Comp,

It made me a little dizzy, but it sure did look like HH!

Thanks,

Rob
comdpa
Originally Posted by cometgolfer Comp,

It made me a little dizzy, but it sure did look like HH!

Thanks,

Rob
Welcome Rob.

I wonder if Lynn can re-post those wonderful pictures of Mr. Kelley demonstrating this...
Yoda
Originally Posted by comdpa
I wonder if Lynn can re-post those wonderful pictures of Mr. Kelley demonstrating this...
I've got the photo and will post it as soon as I can get to a scanner.
Yoda
Originally Posted by comdpa
I wonder if Lynn can re-post those wonderful pictures of Mr. Kelley demonstrating this...
Homer Kelley told the five of us in his January 1982 GSEM Class that Centrifugal Force automatically aligns the Clubface and Clubshaft for Horizontal Hinging through Impact. To prove his point, he took us out on his driveway one morning and brought out the string device you see here. By the way, that garage in the background was Homer's 'laboratory.' All the indoor photos in the book were taken just inside that door underneath the little G.O.L.F. sign.

The Clubhead was actually balsa wood painted silver with a little screw in the middle of the Clubface to give it a Sweetspot. Homer tried several times to get the string whirling about his body, but he kept getting tangled up in the string. That's why the fellows in the background are still smiling. I remember saying, "Having a little trouble with that Start Up, aren't you, Homer?"

He finally was able to get the little Clubhead whirling around, and on one of the passes through Impact, I was able to get a perfect 'shot' of the Impact alignment. As you can see, the Clubface is "Closing Only" (Horizontal Hinge Action) and the Sweetspot in perfectly in-line with the #3 Pressure Point (Right Forefinger). Years later, the phenomena of "Clubhead Droop" became the newest revelation in Clubfitting, but you can see it clearly here.

I sent a copy of the photo to Homer, and some 22 years later it re-surfaced in a Sports Illustrated article that included a brief sketch about him. Someone asked me then where the magazine got the photo, and I answered: "I don't know who gave them the photo, but I do know who has the negative."

Here is the photo of that blessed event and one more that no one has seen.

Those present in the photo are (from left to right) Steve Snyder, Greg McHatton, and Mike Holder. Behind Homer is John Fey. And behind the lens...

Matt
You ARE releasing the club on the inclined plane. Due to CF the clubhead wants to "turn over" during impact and that's your horizontal hinge. All hinge actions are executed on the inclined plane and your amount of ROLL varies with the hinge action you're using.
EdZ
Originally Posted by cometgolfer WHY is horizontal hinging the natural hinge action for a swinger? CG
The short answer, physics and the design of the club. The fact that golf is a 'side on' game with a clubface/head that is offset from the shaft similar to a hockey stick.
smooth
With my irons i feel a definate "roll" to produce a horizontal hinge action

With the driver i feel like my hands are just hanging on... does this mean that i'm likely angle hinging if i don't "feel the roll"?
Matt
Originally Posted by smooth With my irons i feel a definate "roll" to produce a horizontal hinge action

With the driver i feel like my hands are just hanging on... does this mean that i'm likely angle hinging if i don't "feel the roll"?
With the driver...not necessarily. As the clubs get longer the easier it is for CF to completely take over if you allow it to. You'd REALLY have to be "holding it off" to produce angled hinging and it'd be no accident.
smooth
Originally Posted by Matt With the driver...not necessarily. As the clubs get longer the easier it is for CF to completely take over if you allow it to. You'd REALLY have to be "holding it off" to produce angled hinging and it'd be no accident.
Cool thanks, wasn't sure whether the "full roll feel" would be applicable in these longer shots. Definately feel the differences in hinge actions in the short shots
Yoda
Originally Posted by smooth
With my irons i feel a definate "roll" to produce a horizontal hinge action.

With the driver i feel like my hands are just hanging on... does this mean that i'm likely angle hinging if i don't "feel the roll"?
On the Flatter Plane Angles, Angled Hinging approaches Horizontal Hinging. Hence your ability to produce Horizontal Hinging with the Feel of 'No Roll.'

On the Steeper Plane Angles, Angled Hinging approaches Vertical Hinging. Hence the necessity for a more pronounced 'Roll' Feel to produce the Horizontal Hinge Action.
cpwindow4
Good relpy yoda.
Very clear
ldeit
Lynn,

In post #19 you gave the following explanation:


On the Flatter Plane Angles, Angled Hinging approaches Horizontal Hinging. Hence your ability to produce Horizontal Hinging with the Feel of 'No Roll.'

On the Steeper Plane Angles, Angled Hinging approaches Vertical Hinging. Hence the necessity for a more pronounced 'Roll' Feel to produce the Horizontal Hinge Action.
__________________
Yoda


This idea may be way “outside the box” but some 6 months ago I thought of the following explanation for why slicing is so common among golfers.

Here goes,
Lie angles of golf clubs are measured from the horizontal up to the clubshaft. The range is approximately from 64* to 56*. Since an angled hinge has layback and closing, a 45* angle would be half layback and half closing.

Since the lie angle of golf clubs is greater than 45*, the tendency would be to under-roll the clubface (toward vertical hinging as you stated above) if you are feeling no-roll. Hence, this could be a simple explanation for why slicing is such a problem for golfers as they are attempting a no-roll feel when they should have some feel of roll to close the clubface because of the angle of the clubshaft.

Lee
Matt
Originally Posted by Yoda On the Flatter Plane Angles, Angled Hinging approaches Horizontal Hinging. Hence your ability to produce Horizontal Hinging with the Feel of 'No Roll.'

On the Steeper Plane Angles, Angled Hinging approaches Vertical Hinging. Hence the necessity for a more pronounced 'Roll' Feel to produce the Horizontal Hinge Action.
By this same line of reasoning, we can show why short-game vertical hinge actions are more often than not unnecessary. As the stroke gets shorter and the plane angle steeper, your angled hinge approaches a vertical hinge - all without the deliberate conscious manipulation (and danger) that comes with it!
comdpa
Originally Posted by Matt By this same line of reasoning, we can show why short-game vertical hinge actions are more often than not unnecessary. As the stroke gets shorter and the plane angle steeper, your angled hinge approaches a vertical hinge - all without the deliberate conscious manipulation (and danger) that comes with it!
Matt,

Very astute observation...I can't tell you how many bladed shots I have seen people make trying to "hold the face open".
smooth
Originally Posted by Yoda On the Flatter Plane Angles, Angled Hinging approaches Horizontal Hinging. Hence your ability to produce Horizontal Hinging with the Feel of 'No Roll.'

On the Steeper Plane Angles, Angled Hinging approaches Vertical Hinging. Hence the necessity for a more pronounced 'Roll' Feel to produce the Horizontal Hinge Action.
Thanks for this Yoda, it makes a HUGE difference in translating the 'feel into real'. This post has saved me a potential few months worth of frustration !!!
bts
Originally Posted by cometgolfer ..........
WHY is horizontal hinging the natural hinge action for a swinger? ....................
CG
So that the club can travel across a FLAT plane.
comdpa
Originally Posted by bts So that the club can travel across a FLAT plane.
A vertical and angled plane are both FLAT as well, and per 1-L-5, "The clubshaft lies full length on a FLAT, tilted plane." (emphasis mine)
Matt
Originally Posted by comdpa A vertical and angled plane are both FLAT as well, and per 1-L-5, "The clubshaft lies full length on a FLAT, tilted plane." (emphasis mine)
Maybe he meant HORIZONTAL?
comdpa
Originally Posted by Matt Maybe he meant HORIZONTAL?
I do have that feeling too Matt....
bts
Originally Posted by comdpa A vertical and angled plane are both FLAT as well, and per 1-L-5, "The clubshaft lies full length on a FLAT, tilted plane." (emphasis mine)
OK, how about "so that the leading arm and club can travel across a FLAT plane"? It's the same for "angled hinge", but not for "vertical hinge", where the clubhead move on a vertical plane with the clubface facing the target all the time.
comdpa
Originally Posted by bts OK, how about "so that the leading arm and club can travel across a FLAT plane"? It's the same for "angled hinge", but not for "vertical hinge", where the clubhead move on a vertical plane with the clubface facing the target all the time.
It makes a world of difference whether you are referencing "CLUB" as in shaft or face...