Start Up Swivel

Originally Posted by rwh As he demonstrates the "1 to 2" move standing inside the plane board, it corresponds to Section 4 - Start Up of the Twelve Sections described in Chapter 8. However, the swivel part is generally only used by Swingers.

Right you are rwh. A few weeks ago when I visited the swamp I was hitting my normal volume of swampballs (400-500) while Yoda was giving a lesson. As I was admiring OBLeft's swing, Lynn walked up to me during a break and asked, "Hey Bagger, so are you hitting now?".

No says I. Still swinging.

He asked me to go to the top of my swing, adjusted my wrists into a correct position and said, "this is where you need to be". He's had me working on start up in the past but I had bigger issues to deal with at the time.

Later in the day I visited Steve Ferguson, GSEB who teaches along side Ted and Lynn. He had a shiny new HG Driver and I asked to take a few swings with it. I took one swing and he said, "hold on right there". He grabbed his camera and set me up for some video. He pointed out the same thing Lynn was seeing. My clubshaft was cross-line at the top and the clubface was closed to the sky.

Five minutes later Steve had me doing start-up swivel drills. He said, "Fan it, Fan it as hard as you can at startup, you can't fan it enough". Note to the reader, this is clubface fanning while tracing a straight planeline, not taking it inside at startup. It took me about 5 swings of hitting pushed right shots until we figured out that the lack of a start up swivel has created very little roll in my release. So once I started rolling everything came together.

Its amazing what that little start up motion does to every section of the swing. Over the years Lynn has taken me from stance, to pivot, to arms, and now to hands. The final missing pieces of my swing are finally coming together.

Nice Post!

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance Five minutes later Steve had me doing start-up swivel drills. He said, "Fan it, Fan it as hard as you can at startup, you can't fan it enough". Note to the reader, this is clubface fanning while tracing a straight planeline, not taking it inside at startup.

Great post and an important point that you've made. The swivel has nothing to do with arm movement other than a rotational movement of the forearms. A complete swivel can be made that moves the clubshaft parallel to the target line and parallel to the ground and opens the clubface 90° without ever moving the arms from their address position.

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance Right you are rwh. A few weeks ago when I visited the swamp I was hitting my normal volume of swampballs (400-500) while Yoda was giving a lesson. As I was admiring OBLeft's swing, Lynn walked up to me during a break and asked, "Hey Bagger, so are you hitting now?".

No says I. Still swinging.

He asked me to go to the top of my swing, adjusted my wrists into a correct position and said, "this is where you need to be". He's had me working on start up in the past but I had bigger issues to deal with at the time.

Later in the day I visited Steve Ferguson, GSEB who teaches along side Ted and Lynn. He had a shiny new HG Driver and I asked to take a few swings with it. I took one swing and he said, "hold on right there". He grabbed his camera and set me up for some video. He pointed out the same thing Lynn was seeing. My clubshaft was cross-line at the top and the clubface was closed to the sky.

Five minutes later Steve had me doing start-up swivel drills. He said, "Fan it, Fan it as hard as you can at startup, you can't fan it enough". Note to the reader, this is clubface fanning while tracing a straight planeline, not taking it inside at startup. It took me about 5 swings of hitting pushed right shots until we figured out that the lack of a start up swivel has created very little roll in my release. So once I started rolling everything came together.

Its amazing what that little start up motion does to every section of the swing. Over the years Lynn has taken me from stance, to pivot, to arms, and now to hands. The final missing pieces of my swing are finally coming together.

Great Post indeed, Gives detail to the simple one to two and avoids taking the club inside because it is tracing the plane line straight- not twisting the hands and clubhead. kudos to Steve too.

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance Right you are rwh. A few weeks ago when I visited the swamp I was hitting my normal volume of swampballs (400-500) while Yoda was giving a lesson. As I was admiring OBLeft's swing, Lynn walked up to me during a break and asked, "Hey Bagger, so are you hitting now?".

No says I. Still swinging.

He asked me to go to the top of my swing, adjusted my wrists into a correct position and said, "this is where you need to be". He's had me working on start up in the past but I had bigger issues to deal with at the time.

Later in the day I visited Steve Ferguson, GSEB who teaches along side Ted and Lynn. He had a shiny new HG Driver and I asked to take a few swings with it. I took one swing and he said, "hold on right there". He grabbed his camera and set me up for some video. He pointed out the same thing Lynn was seeing. My clubshaft was cross-line at the top and the clubface was closed to the sky.

Five minutes later Steve had me doing start-up swivel drills. He said, "Fan it, Fan it as hard as you can at startup, you can't fan it enough". Note to the reader, this is clubface fanning while tracing a straight planeline, not taking it inside at startup. It took me about 5 swings of hitting pushed right shots until we figured out that the lack of a start up swivel has created very little roll in my release. So once I started rolling everything came together.

Its amazing what that little start up motion does to every section of the swing. Over the years Lynn has taken me from stance, to pivot, to arms, and now to hands. The final missing pieces of my swing are finally coming together.

One of the best examples on tour - Anthony Kim.

A move very similar to Hogan in many ways.

I thought I was watching Jeff's pre-shot there for a minute!

Originally Posted by EdZ One of the best examples on tour - Anthony Kim.

A move very similar to Hogan in many ways.

I thought I was watching Jeff's pre-shot there for a minute!

You mean this guy???


Jeffs startup is a great example.

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance

This reminds me. For those who haven't seen it, one of the more recent enhancements to the V1 swing analysis software has added the ability to load and analyze youTube videos.

http://www.v1golfacademy.com/v1home.asp

This one of Anthony Kim really shows his horizontal hinge action, great swingers right forearm alignments (at end and pre release pitch elbow).

Nice swing!

This beautiful swing deserves a sequence

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance "Fan it, Fan it as hard as you can at startup, you can't fan it enough". Note to the reader, this is clubface fanning while tracing a straight planeline, not taking it inside at startup.

It is the most difficult part for me...!!!

....was the holy grail for me. As long as you .....

"Delivery Line Prep Roll" during the downswing.

Wind it up going back.....unwind it coming down.

I see so many players try to emulate Sergio by holding that "wrist lag". Their problem is they never unload that stored energy. They try to create force.

Let it happen. It's a beautiful thing. LET that left wrist uncock downplane. Keep the pivot moving. ROLL..ROLL...ROLL

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance Right you are rwh. A few weeks ago when I visited the swamp I was hitting my normal volume of swampballs (400-500) while Yoda was giving a lesson. As I was admiring OBLeft's swing, Lynn walked up to me during a break and asked, "Hey Bagger, so are you hitting now?".

No says I. Still swinging.

He asked me to go to the top of my swing, adjusted my wrists into a correct position and said, "this is where you need to be". He's had me working on start up in the past but I had bigger issues to deal with at the time.

Later in the day I visited Steve Ferguson, GSEB who teaches along side Ted and Lynn. He had a shiny new HG Driver and I asked to take a few swings with it. I took one swing and he said, "hold on right there". He grabbed his camera and set me up for some video. He pointed out the same thing Lynn was seeing. My clubshaft was cross-line at the top and the clubface was closed to the sky.

Five minutes later Steve had me doing start-up swivel drills. He said, "Fan it, Fan it as hard as you can at startup, you can't fan it enough". Note to the reader, this is clubface fanning while tracing a straight planeline, not taking it inside at startup. It took me about 5 swings of hitting pushed right shots until we figured out that the lack of a start up swivel has created very little roll in my release. So once I started rolling everything came together.

Its amazing what that little start up motion does to every section of the swing. Over the years Lynn has taken me from stance, to pivot, to arms, and now to hands. The final missing pieces of my swing are finally coming together.

Thanks Bagger. It was great to meet you and to talk of G.O.L.F. and life.

I have an old tendency towards an angled start up, the club sort of looking at the ball. Lynn deduced this to be due to my old pre RFT takeaway where I "maintained the triangle" (non bending right elbow) while pushing the club back with my left arm with a big shoulder turn. Ah, remember the seventies and soft rock?

Things have changed a lot in my start up but I still have some residual angled hinging going back. It isnt the first wobble in my swing but its something I hope to tackle soon. I love that feeling of "free wheeling" into the ball with the clubface like a little baseball bat.

What was the drill Steve gave you to train you start up swivel? Does this move preclude a lagging takeaway? Did you have to dial down your extensor action until after the swivel was completed?

O.B.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Ah, remember the seventies and soft rock?

What was the drill Steve gave you to train you start up swivel? Does this move preclude a lagging takeaway? Did you have to dial down your extensor action until after the swivel was completed?

O.B.

Hi O.B.

Its soft rock now, but back then Steve Miller, The Eagles, Doobie Brothers, etc were in everyones 8-track. Wish I would have started playing golf back in the 70's instead of the late 90's. I wouldn't look like such a train wreck now.

No specific drills per se but in my case, its like trying to rub your head and pat your stomach at the same time. I just couldn't fully turn the left hand down the planeline at startup. Too conditioned to bending the right wrist without much roll as a primary part of my startup motion.

I now use a lagging takeaway which means the right wrist needs to stay vertical during startup while the left wrist turns and fans the clubface. To clarify, the wrists stay in their adjusted address position during startup with the exception of turning. I had to practice simply tracing the planeline with the clubshaft while turning the wrists over. No right wrist bending or left wrist cocking until the backstroke section. The clubshaft traces the planeline much longer before switching ends.

In my case, video confirmed that it flattened my backswing and got my wrists set perfectly at the top. The inside takeaway disappeared as well. The lagging clubhead isn't for everyone and there are shots when you need to set the wrists earlier. All I'm saying is even though the clubhead is lagging, the left wrist should be turning to fan the clubface.

FYI -
I have no issues with the Tomasello drill as long as its followed to the letter. Just not my thing.

To miss golf in the seventies isnt the worst thing that could happen to you, Bagger. If you want to try to make up for it, just grow your hair down past your shoulders, order a tequila sunrise and start reverse "C' ing" until your back falls apart.

Perverted axis tilt could not be overdone back then. It was, as Lynn would say, the worst of times for the field mice on the left hand side of the fairway.


Thanks for all of the great posts and hard work on this site. It has helped my game so much.

Regards
O.B.

Bagger and I played a round yesterday and I noticed how my friend was pounding the ball. The other thing I noticed was the compression he was getting with his wedges and the sound it was making. He NEVER makes that sound. We are on the 7th tee and he showed me the start up swivel move, which I never really understood before. He also showed me how to properly roll through impact.

In the past when I tried to swing, I always struggled with the horizontal hinge through impact. I would always hit sharp hooks when trying to swing. I am convinced now that this was due to an improper start-up.

They say you should never work on your swing during a round. Screw that. All I can say is I'm blown away by the results. I can't believe how hard I can roll throught impact without hooking the ball.

Thanks Bagger!! (and Yoda, and Steve, and Homer)

Hey Trig, I'm blown away as well. Can you expand on what he showed you? Was it the "1 to 2" or something else? Thanks

PS Was it any different with his wedges? I"m still a little concerned with the shanks. THANKS

Originally Posted by Trig Bagger and I played a round yesterday and I noticed how my friend was pounding the ball. The other thing I noticed was the compression he was getting with his wedges and the sound it was making. He NEVER makes that sound. We are on the 7th tee and he showed me the start up swivel move, which I never really understood before. He also showed me how to properly roll through impact.

In the past when I tried to swing, I always struggled with the horizontal hinge through impact. I would always hit sharp hooks when trying to swing. I am convinced now that this was due to an improper start-up.

They say you should never work on your swing during a round. Screw that. All I can say is I'm blown away by the results. I can't believe how hard I can roll throught impact without hooking the ball.

Thanks Bagger!! (and Yoda, and Steve, and Homer)

So, I use EA and roll to my top letting the plane flatten. Coming down with a horizontal hinge that is non-automatic?

That will produce much more out on the downswing and not much more hook?

Pat

My GSEB has shown me the hinges contolled by the shoulders with a back pocket pivot ( my sense of it) while using a level handle until the plane swings up.

I've noticed that by tracing the straightline planeline with my vertical left wrist, my right forearm fans and elbow cocks and seperates from my hip as my shoulders turn. Are you talking about the same mechanics in your quote below?

When I do RFT, I doublecock the heck out of everything!

Thanks.

Pat

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance
I now use a lagging takeaway which means the right wrist needs to stay vertical during startup while the left wrist turns and fans the clubface. To clarify, the wrists stay in their adjusted address position during startup with the exception of turning. I had to practice simply tracing the planeline with the clubshaft while turning the wrists over. No right wrist bending or left wrist cocking until the backstroke section. The clubshaft traces the planeline much longer before switching ends.





.

Originally Posted by innercityteacher .....
When I do RFT, I doublecock the heck out of everything!

Thanks.

Pat

The shoulders must turn. If they don't, it can lead to all kinds of issues.

Get that right shoulder 'back' to the plane and you'll find the RFT quite helpful

Originally Posted by 6bmike What excatly does 1 to 2 teach a student besides two positions? 1 to 2 is fine but it is Homer that is the devil in the details- not going from point 1 to point 2.

Mike is right, the Devil is in the details and the details are different for every individual.

I didn't show Trig the Tomasello 1 to 2 drill which is found in Chapter 7 of the video series in the gallery. I don't have a problem with Tommys pattern as long as its followed to the letter.

My swinging pattern is different than the Tomasello method. I showed Trig what I do for a startup swivel which is working well for me. I don't recommend it for everyone. Trig has a much different swinging pattern than I do, but like the swing and club Ho that he is , he tried it and it seemed to work pretty well for him. His drives were further down the fairway than he's ever been on his home course which he plays several times a week.

I think one of the reasons it helps increase distance is because it creates better conditions for horizontal hinging. When you are rolling as hard as you want through impact, you can't bend the left wrist and you can't steer. I've seen my swing on video and my clubface is NOT open at the top, nor is it closed. Its on plane and as a result, I haven't had any shanks. The difficult thing to get use to with a startup swivel is the absolute necessity to roll hard through impact without worrying about hooking. Your pivot has to be trained to keep up with the amount of roll in your downswing. Over the years I've trained my pivot so I'm not having any issues with hooking. If your arms outrace your pivot, this could be an issue. The problem I'm having is remembering to roll hard through impact so my miss is a solid but pushed shot. Ball position is also a very important factor. It must be positioned directly opposite the left shoulder at Impact Fix, otherwise you have to make compensations on the downswing.

Bagger, Trig

Id give my eye teeth to be able to free wheel through impact without fearing a hook.

Other than what you have already stated about turning the left wrist, lagging, horizontal,adjusted etc is there anything else? Pitch elbow? Dialed down extensor action during startup? So you maintain the adjusted flat right bent left wrist until when?

Is this standard wrist action or lagging startup swivel? How do you prevent your self from turning too much and getting under the plane?

Sorry for the list of questions, it's a topic of great interest for me.

O.B.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Bagger, Trig

Id give my eye teeth to be able to free wheel through impact without fearing a hook.

I find that hard to believe. I could have sworn Yoda was working with Davis Love III when I walked up on you last month. You have silky smooth and balanced action.

Back to the results of a turned startup swivel, I'll only tell you only a few things for now. Imagine you just asked the same questions to Steve Ferguson (because I did). He looks at you with a big grin and a twinkle in his eye and says,

"Just trust it".

In my case, I just keep pulling, rolling, and uncocking past impact and into follow through. I think in non-TGM circles they call this "releasing the club". You can't let the pivot stop pulling until your are well into follow through, then momentum will carry that wheel rim around.

(The swivel is a forearm rotation) has helped me but can someone explain this next statement"horizontal hinging through impact".

Originally Posted by jerry1967 (The swivel is a forearm rotation) has helped me but can someone explain this next statement"horizontal hinging through impact".

Picture a swinging door - the door swings open and closes. Your flat left wrist/clubface is doing the same with HH. A different action than a swivel where the left arm is rolling over. Yoda has nice video on the 3 different hinge actions.

Originally Posted by mb6606 Picture a swinging door - the door swings open and closes. Your flat left wrist/clubface is doing the same with HH. A different action than a swivel where the left arm is rolling over. Yoda has nice video on the 3 different hinge actions.

thank you- I think the information is starting to sink in a little.

You swingers using a start-up swivel:
Are you swiveling the entire l. arm (do you rotate and feel the l. shoulder socket rotate) or do you only swivel the l. forearm with a wrist action?
haven't experimented myself yet, plan to, but in the meantime wonder if there would be a difference in how that performs and obviously the feeling...
or maybe you guys start the forearm and that links and rotates the entire arm
I guess I'm thinking about a total motion
your thoughts?

Originally Posted by birdie chance You swingers using a start-up swivel:
Are you swiveling the entire l. arm (do you rotate and feel the l. shoulder socket rotate) or do you only swivel the l. forearm with a wrist action?
haven't experimented myself yet, plan to, but in the meantime wonder if there would be a difference in how that performs and obviously the feeling...
or maybe you guys start the forearm and that links and rotates the entire arm
I guess I'm thinking about a total motion
your thoughts?

The swivel is a forearm rotation.

Originally Posted by rwh The swivel is a forearm rotation.

And hinge action is left wrist turn and roll that turns and rolls the entire left arm wedge and there in lies my problem.

I tend to swivel through impact sending the ball left instead of horizontal hinging through impact. But I also tend towards an angled start up. Im wondering if the two are related? Perhaps horizontal hinging or start up swivel would help my swivel through impact problem. Any opinions? Or are they two separate wobbles or misalignments.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left And hinge action is left wrist turn and roll and there in lies my problem.

I tend to swivel through impact sending the ball left instead of horizontal hinging through impact. But I also tend towards an angled start up. Im wondering if the two are related? Perhaps horizontal hinging or start up swivel would help my swivel through impact problem. Any opinions? Or are they two separate wobbles or misalignments.

I only move my Hands and to a lesser degree my right elbow but I never give much thought to what actively rotating my forearms- they respond to the Hand's task. The RFT is still the PPs tracing a plane line.

Impact problem? I'm a firm believer that impact is only half a hinge action, perhaps even a form of steering if done half way- think beyond impact and fully finished the intended hinge motion properly.

Originally Posted by 6bmike I only move my Hands and to a lesser degree my right elbow but I never give much thought to what actively rotating my forearms- they respond to the Hand's task. The RFT is still the PPs tracing a plane line.

Impact problem? I'm a firm believer that impact is only half a hinge action, perhaps even a form of steering if done half way- think beyond impact and fully finished the intended hinge motion properly.

6B, if I am right in thinking you are the producer of 6b productions, thanks for the great videos on this and other sites. Fantastic stuff.

I love your notion of continuing hinging past separation. Great. With a small pulley wheel the hinge action starts just prior to impact and extends as long as it can. Is that right? Yoda, for instance does not seem to finish swivel until way late. His right shoulder is down plane and he has lots of right arm left through impact.

I think for me, the swiveling started too early due to the fact the left arm blast off was missing after some misguided head cover under the left armpit training sessions from a few years ago. Dang, another book I wish I'd never read.

O.B.

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance I find that hard to believe. I could have sworn Yoda was working with Davis Love III when I walked up on you last month. You have silky smooth and balanced action.

Back to the results of a turned startup swivel, I'll only tell you only a few things for now. Imagine you just asked the same questions to Steve Ferguson (because I did). He looks at you with a big grin and a twinkle in his eye and says,

"Just trust it".

In my case, I just keep pulling, rolling, and uncocking past impact and into follow through. I think in non-TGM circles they call this "releasing the club". You can't let the pivot stop pulling until your are well into follow through, then momentum will carry that wheel rim around.

Out of curiosity, are you thinking about tracing or anything else when you are working on this or is your focus mainly on the startup swivel?

After a roundhousing fix Ted initiated in my swing this winter, If I don't feel a strong roll through impact, I leave the ball a little right. A work in progress, but I find when thinking about a straight line from the end through the ball, with a 'frozen' right wrist and pretty strong extensor action, I can roll about as hard as I want and never lose it left. Just pull until my arms are straight and pointing at the baseline a few feet in front of the ball. Steve nailed the hardest part for me...

'Just' trust it.

Originally Posted by bambam Out of curiosity, are you thinking about tracing or anything else when you are working on this or is your focus mainly on the startup swivel?

'Just' trust it.

I have to think about tracing otherwise I have have a tendency to take the club inside. It's a necessity for me.
And from the top, I also think about tracing. I guess you could say I think about tracing first and turn/roll is secondary. Two swing thoughts for now until I can get this engrained.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Bagger, Trig

Id give my eye teeth to be able to free wheel through impact without fearing a hook.


O.B.

Bagger really showed me two things. One was the feeling of the right wrist at start-up and then also how to fan the club to the top. It feels very strange to me. It feels like I must be opening the clubface wide but when checking the mirror it is dead on plane. I played again today and had my partner watch it and he confirmed it is dead on plane at the top. So I know what that feels like now and will get used to it. I struggled more today with the rolling through impact and pushed many shots right. I suspect it is because I'm not rolling hard enough as Baggger mentioned. I need a lot of work on this, it's all new to my motion.

Originally Posted by Trig I suspect it is because I'm not rolling hard enough as Baggger mentioned. I need a lot of work on this, it's all new to my motion.

I believe that those of us who are not use to rolling or to put it another way, resisting the natural tendency of the left wrist to roll through impact (steering), have to learn to trust it.

I don't feel so much like have have to force roll it, but I certainly feel like "going with", or even "initiating" the clubface's natural tendency to fan closed takes a high degree of trust.

Originally Posted by Trig Bagger really showed me to things. One was the feeling of the right wrist at start-up and then also how to fan the club to the top. It feels very strange to me. It feels like I must be opening the clubface wide but when checking the mirror it is dead on plane. I played again today and had my partner watch it and he confirmed it is dead on plane at the top. So I know what that feels like now and will get used to it. I struggled more today with the rolling through impact and pushed many shots right. I suspect it is because I'm not rolling hard enough as Baggger mentioned. I need a lot of work on this, it's all new to my motion.

This is interesting stuff. I have heard so many pros who are on a hot streak say something like, "I can now fully release the club without worrying about hooking it".

We LBG followers might take their "release" to really mean horizontal hinging with an undisturbed down and out club head orbit as opposed to steering, in our terms.

It was getting confusing to have these posts in the Tomasello thread so I moved them here. Toms move is much different that what I'm trying to describe after my trip to the Swamp.
The start up I'm describing is more of a lagging clubhead takeaway, down the planeline, with a full left wrist turn to fan the clubface.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left This is interesting stuff. I have heard so many pros who are on a hot streak say something like, "I can now fully release the club without worrying about hooking it".

We LBG followers might take their "release" to really mean horizontal hinging with an undisturbed down and out club head orbit as opposed to steering, in our terms.

The other thing I should mention is I'm a converted hitter (sorry Ted). My tendency is to hold on to an angled hinge through impact.

Long ago, like many others I'm sure, I would rotate my left forearm in imitation of Hogan's 5 Lessons. It always was on plane and sometimes, when I imagined the plane guiding the shot, I could hit two or three shots in a row. That was 15 years ago. I had no guide so I could not repeat the process. Now, thanks to TGM, I think I understand that the rotation of the left hand combined with horizontal or any of the hinges, allows a slightly angled or flat left wrist to act as a shield or insurance for the hitting motion. I believe Yoda said this here:



http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p...5&video_id=145

Orig post by Trig.

"Bagger really showed me to things. One was the feeling of the right wrist at start-up and then also how to fan the club to the top. It feels very strange to me. It feels like I must be opening the clubface wide but when checking the mirror it is dead on plane. I played again today and had my partner watch it and he confirmed it is dead on plane at the top. So I know what that feels like now and will get used to it. I struggled more today with the rolling through impact and pushed many shots right. I suspect it is because I'm not rolling hard enough as Baggger mentioned. I need a lot of work on this, it's all new to my motion."

I believe that there is no need to roll coming down, just hinge. Is that correct?

Patrick

You can only Hinge and Trace so much. Through impact really. Assuming Horizontal Hinging say, you need something to get your Left Palm off the Inclined Plane and over to a place where it is perpendicular to the Horizontal Basic Plane.

For some it is a feeling of a long continuous Swivel. You cant align a long continuos Hinge Action for full swings. You can only align the Left Hand perpendicular to a Basic Plane whilst aligning the shaft or sweetspot to the Plane Line for so long. Short shots you can do it, it is the ideal, in fact. But not long.