The Tomasello Tapes -- Chapter Five / Power

Yoda
Click on
for Chapter Five / Power.
mb6606
Again FABULOUS!!!!
Thanks to all those who made it possible to post these clips.
Mathew
Cool - Something to look forward to in the morning thanks again guys
PChandler
Great Stuff!

Thanks much.

Question: The idea of not being able to push and pull at the same time...I am not a weight lifter but I have lifted weights. If I were to bend down and pick up a barbell, I feel like I would be pushing from the waist down and pulling up from the arms and shoulders in one motion.

Can someone explain why my feel is not right.

PChandler
12 piece bucket
This series is just another reason that this is the BEST GOLF SITE on the web! Thanks for sharing!

I have taken a lot from the series. Extensor Action and the Flail demo were very good particularly.

Can anybody comment on losing the amount of Bend in the Right Wrist? This showed up again in this episode. Is this something that is done in Right Arm Swinging?

Also, he spoke of the left hip leading and thus keeping the flail in an in-line condition. Would this be the same with the right forearm driving in hitting?

Thanks!

R
Matt
Good stuff. But I'm wondering why he doesn't differentiate between the 'standard' flail and the 'golfer's' flail. Piece of string vs. hinge pin?

The 'standard' flail as Tomasello demonstrates allows the 'clubhead' to pass the hands. The 'golfer's' flail has a hinge pin that only permits cocking and rotating and doesn't allow a bent left wrist.
dclaryjr
Originally Posted by Matt Good stuff. But I'm wondering why he doesn't differentiate between the 'standard' flail and the 'golfer's' flail. Piece of string vs. hinge pin?

The 'standard' flail as Tomasello demonstrates allows the 'clubhead' to pass the hands. The 'golfer's' flail has a hinge pin that only permits cocking and rotating and doesn't allow a bent left wrist.
I think the demonstration is valid. The "clubhead" could pass the hands if the pivot motion is interrupted. That's what would happen with a real club and real human wrists. The hands are still leading and the in-line condition of the lever is achieved.
fmlutz
Again, great stuff! Keep it coming! This exactly the verification on that I need right now. I hit using the Croker Method and all of this is very similar to Tom's teaching. I am surprised that he does not use more TGM terms. Thanks again!

Mike
wanole
ready for #6.

I really want to see how he does the slow mo swing in stages since that is how I like to train.
Uppndownn
The Law of the Flail......moving such that the bottom part of the
flail reaches an in line position with the rest!

So simple when you see it on video.......so confusing when
trying to grasp it otherwise.

Could this lead to a more clear understanding of the Magic
of the Right Forearm?

I hope so.........

Thanks again to all who are responsible for putting the TT series
together. =D>
Yoda
Originally Posted by wanole Ready for #6.
Finished already?

My, you are a voracious bunch!
wanole
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by wanole Ready for #6.
Finished already?

My, you are a voracious bunch!

yep...quick learner.
DES
I don't want to start an argument on Tomasellp or anyone esle but I do have a simple question. For a novice in TGM, if one is watching a video of someone who does not adhere strictly to TGM, is there not a "danger" (for lack of a better word) of being led astray, resulting in not incorporating proper TGM techniques?

For example I watched the first two videos, (seemed pretty good to me) but I also read the statement that Tomasello did not adhere strictly to TGM . . . so I started thinking, should I watch these or not, I'm confused enough as it is? Will I be reading one thing in the book and then incorporating something else in practice?

I don't mean to step on any toes . . . so please forgive . . . just trying to learn TGM. I have limited amount of time I can spend on the FORUM so I need to use my time wisely.

Thanx!!!

Dave
DDL
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by wanole Ready for #6.
Finished already?

My, you are a voracious bunch!
I'm a member of the multi-tasking generation.I can chew gum, watch tv, read a book, eat a meal, surf the web and watch golf videos on my computer at the same time! I am not exaggerating. Senator Clinton says multi-tasking is bad for the youth of America. I call it evolution. More please!!
Yoda
Originally Posted by DES I don't want to start an argument on Tomasellp or anyone esle but I do have a simple question. For a novice in TGM, if one is watching a video of someone who does not adhere strictly to TGM, is there not a "danger" (for lack of a better word) of being led astray, resulting in not incorporating proper TGM techniques?

For example I watched the first two videos, (seemed pretty good to me) but I also read the statement that Tomasello did not adhere strictly to TGM . . . so I started thinking, should I watch these or not, I'm confused enough as it is? Will I be reading one thing in the book and then incorporating something else in practice?

[Bold by Yoda.]
This was a question I wrestled with prior to going ahead with the Series. For the most part, I have no problem with the information as presented. My reservations with the balance fall into three categories:

1. Presenting a concept in a radically different way that gets the point across but at the expense of the underlying Principles. I don't like it, but I can live with it.

2. Teaching a 'Feel' at the expense of 'Real,' the precise underlying Mechanic. I am less tolerant of this deviation but can also live with the situation -- as long as the correct Mechanic is ultimately identified.

3. Presenting information that is just plain wrong. Here there can be no compromise. The errors cannot be allowed to stand as fact and must be corrected. That said, I do not view these threads as a personal soapbox. I intend to let them develop and mature on their own. Along the way, I will participate meaningfully as the opportunity arises. Over time, if the obvious errors have not been brought to light, then I will step forward.

My decision to post these videos was made deliberately in spite of the above concerns. That is because I sincerely believe there is far more good to be gained by listening to Tommy than harm. Where the divide is simply too wide, I will present alternatives.

Fourm Members can then weigh the merits of each, and decide for themselves what to accept and what to reject.
drewitgolf
Where to begin? Where to begin?

Accelerating Radially and Longitudinally.....
Which one?

Making a horizontal wrist (grip) motion by trying to flatten the right wrist through impact.....

Doesn't Mr. Kelley state (4-D-1) Hitters, especially, must learn to straighten the Right Arm without flattening the Right Wrist?

Where to begin? Where to begin?
DES
Thanx for your thoughts and clarification.

Dave
Yoda
Originally Posted by drewitgolf Where to begin? Where to begin?

Accelerating Radially and Longitudinally.....
Which one?

Making a horizontal wrist (grip) motion by trying to flatten the right wrist through impact.....

Doesn't Mr. Kelley state (4-D-1) Hitters, especially, must learn to straighten the Right Arm without flattening the Right Wrist?

Where to begin? Where to begin?
Make your points, Drew. They are good ones. Let the dialogues begin!
Yoda
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by drewitgolf Where to begin? Where to begin?

Accelerating Radially and Longitudinally.....
Which one?

Making a horizontal wrist (grip) motion by trying to flatten the right wrist through impact.....

Doesn't Mr. Kelley state (4-D-1) Hitters, especially, must learn to straighten the Right Arm without flattening the Right Wrist?

Where to begin? Where to begin?
Make your points, Drew. They are good ones. Let the dialogues begin!

It would be wise to replay the videos of Tomasello....he doesn't promote trying to flatten the right wrist through impact....what he tells you is this....even with your driving right forearm, if you "ALLOW" your left hip to keep clearing you won't be able to flatten the right wrist through impact.

A short quote from Tomasello's Golf Illustrated interview....

"Yes. The delayed hit is merely keeping the right wrist bent through impact".

DG
This should be in the Chapter Three / Hands thread, but I will follow the line of this one.

All I can say, DG, is that Monday I tried the exact motion he demonstrates...and I mean I sincerely tried -- even though I'm the original 'do or do not' guy -- but when I did the Flattening Right Wrist motion he demonstrated -- Hip Clearing and all -- the shots were far inferior to my normal Bent Right Wrist shots.

I personally find any hint of Right Wrist flattening -- particularly when demonstrated by an authorirty and accompanied by the words "Hit it! Hit it! and "Fire that Right Hand Out" and "Try to Unbend the Right Wrist...Undo it! Undo it!" -- to be an affront to my entire TGM being. Nothing against Tommy personally...that's just how ingrained the Bent Right Wrist training is with me.

Uncock the Right Elbow -- fine. Uncock the Left Wrist -- fine. Hit that Ball with a Bent Right Wrist and Pressure Points #1 and #3 in the Right Hand -- fine. But do not ever demo to a student a Flattening Right Wrist -- a geometrically-disastrous Horizontal Motion of the Wrist -- and say "Hit it! Hit it! Undo the Bend as you go through the golf ball. You won't be able to do it." I have news:

They are able to do it. In fact, they are already doing it, and it's why they are there!
DDL
I interpreted the flattening of the right wrist as a method to train the pivot, specifically the left hip to rotate more and faster, ahead of the hands. Extreme hands controlled pivot. Hands and pivot feed off of each other. Trying to flatten the right wrist will cause the hips to rotate faster, and the faster rotation of the hips will prevent throwaway. I never got the impression he espoused a flat right wrist during impact. Just demonstrating the importance of clearing the left hip as soon and as much as possible.
12 piece bucket
In chapter 3 he says "try to undo the bend but you won't be able to because the left hip is clearing." He says it right about the 4:30 minute mark.
Yoda
Originally Posted by DDL I interpreted the flattening of the right wrist as a method to train the pivot, specifically the left hip to rotate more and faster, ahead of the hands. Extreme hands controlled pivot. Hands and pivot feed off of each other. Trying to flatten the right wrist will cause the hips to rotate faster, and the faster rotation of the hips will prevent throwaway. I never got the impression he espoused a flat right wrist during impact. Just demonstrating the importance of clearing the left hip as soon and as much as possible.
I understand your interpretation. All I am saying is that there should be no need for it!

The whole Star System of G.O.L.F. is based on Precision Mechanics being Translated -- not interpreted -- into Identifiable Feels. Golf Instruction should require an absolute minimum of "interpretation" -- that is why Homer Kelley invented his unique G.O.L.F. vocabulary based on simple dictionary English. This is especially true when it comes to interpreting instruction that says "Undo the (Right Wrist) Bend through Impact." The disclaimer "You won't be able to" (because of the pivot) neither negates nor justifies the instruction to do so.

Once again, I reiterate my own experience with this instruction: The video specifically says to try to "undo" the right wrist Bend through Impact. Well, I could. And did. Repeatedly. With predictable results.

The incontrovertible fact is that the video recommends the player attempt a Horizontal Motion of the Right Wrist through Impact. And this simply is not a move taught by Homer Kelley in his book The Golfing Machine.
JohnThomas1
No matter what procedure i use i never try to release. "Release" the right elbow if hitting yes, but i always try to keep the right wrist bent. I'm positve i do a lot less well than i think tho.
YodasLuke
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket In chapter 3 he says try to undo the bend but you won't be able to because the left hip is clearing. He says it right about the 4:30 minute mark.

But he doesn't say...."Undo it Undo it"....what Tomasello is getting at....with PROPERLY executed "EXTENSOR ACTION" you will have a hard time throwing the clubhead away as long you "LET" the left hip clear.


AS YOU WATCH THE COMPLETE SERIES and after multiple viewings....and I mean multiple viewings....until then interpretation could be a problem based on your prior knowledge of the golf swing.


DG
In all of my reading and listening to thirty audios of Homer teaching, I've NEVER heard him say "undo the bend." That sounds to me to be a destructive statement. I don't get it. What he was trying to say is beyond me...
I'm not trying to step on any toes here...most importantly to me, Homer's toes.
lagster
Originally Posted by YodasLuke
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket In chapter 3 he says try to undo the bend but you won't be able to because the left hip is clearing. He says it right about the 4:30 minute mark.

But he doesn't say...."Undo it Undo it"....what Tomasello is getting at....with PROPERLY executed "EXTENSOR ACTION" you will have a hard time throwing the clubhead away as long you "LET" the left hip clear.


AS YOU WATCH THE COMPLETE SERIES and after multiple viewings....and I mean multiple viewings....until then interpretation could be a problem based on your prior knowledge of the golf swing.


DG
In all of my reading and listening to thirty audios of Homer teaching, I've NEVER heard him say "undo the bend." That sounds to me to be a destructive statement. I don't get it. What he was trying to say is beyond me...
I'm not trying to step on any toes here...most importantly to me, Homer's toes.
G.O.L.F.E.R.s,

I think some of the things on this Australian tape are related to Tom's relationship with Peter Croker. I never heard Tom say something like this "undo the bend" remark until after he went to Australia. The TGM book does have a statement that says something like... in the end, this all may seem to be reversed. I believe I remember Tom using this statement.

For most procedures... I believe Tom advocated maintaining the BENT RIGHT WRIST.

lagster
drewitgolf
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by drewitgolf Where to begin? Where to begin?

Accelerating Radially and Longitudinally.....
Which one?

Making a horizontal wrist (grip) motion by trying to flatten the right wrist through impact.....

Doesn't Mr. Kelley state (4-D-1) Hitters, especially, must learn to straighten the Right Arm without flattening the Right Wrist?

Where to begin? Where to begin?
Make your points, Drew. They are good ones. Let the dialogues begin!
In addition to making a horizontal wrist (grip) motion by trying to flatten the right wrist through impact.....

Tomasello advocates a four-accumulator Swing. A four-accumulator stroke is for Hitting.

If the motion of the number four is action to any degree, it would change the current three barrel to be classified as four barrel pattern.

The right shoulder starts the motion, loading the right arm for hitting. As the right arm is loaded and can move faster than the right shoulder, it will take over the action (thrusting).

A four accumulator hitting stroke, hoewever, is not necessary. The right shoulder action’s, direction and thrust must be so precise if the degree of action is much more than passive motion. The tradeoff of distance vs. direction is not worth the risk.

You can use a four-barrel (accumulator) swing but, there is absolutely no point in it. No advantage can be gained. You will over power the steady force of centrifugal force. Further, centrifugal force will always try to resist any right arm intrusion. Why try if there is no advantage and the possibility of causing potential problems?
fmlutz
I like Tom's idea of the using the right hand for power and trying to unbend the wrist. I use this type of swing (more of a Croker swing) and my feeling is that I get alot of power trying to unbend the wrist. As long as I keep rotating, the unbend really never happens until after impact. I have looked at this on video and at impact there is still bend in my wrist with the FLW, although I am trying to unbend it. Kind of goes against TGM, but it works for me. However, if I stop rotating, then it is fat city! This video of Tom is awesome! Thanks.

Mike
Bagger Lance
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf Drewitgolf,

Can you give us some background info on your experience with TGM or TGM related areas....ie; years you have studied the book, if you have studied with an authorized instructor(s) of TGM,....do you have a college level education in physics, mathematics, or biomechanics?

DG
Whistle blows and Bagger the referee steps in with hands raised signaling timeout...

Over the loudspeaker...

There won't be any personal confrontations in this thread. We will focus on dialog only. Let's keep it civil please.

DG - Address the comments only, and only if you wish to.

Other players - We have the highest respect for Tommy and we value constructive dialog regarding his teachings. Let's seek understanding.

No penalty or yards lost on the play.

Carry on...

Bagger
12 piece bucket
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket In chapter 3 he says try to undo the bend but you won't be able to because the left hip is clearing. He says it right about the 4:30 minute mark.

But he doesn't say...."Undo it Undo it"....what Tomasello is getting at....with PROPERLY executed "EXTENSOR ACTION" you will have a hard time throwing the clubhead away as long you "LET" the left hip clear.


AS YOU WATCH THE COMPLETE SERIES and after multiple viewings....and I mean multiple viewings....until then interpretation could be a problem based on your prior knowledge of the golf swing.


DG
D,

This wasn't meant to be an affront on Mr. T. I was simply pointing out the fact that it was said and precisely the point at which he said it. In addition to saying it he demonstrates it. If anyone wants to see it, it's there 4:30 Chapter 3. Whether or not I'm capable of interpreting based on prior knowledge, I was simply stating that he said it.

I ain't mad atcha. Hope you ain't mad at me.

B
drewitgolf
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Originally Posted by drewitgolf
Originally Posted by Yoda
Originally Posted by drewitgolf Where to begin? Where to begin?

Accelerating Radially and Longitudinally.....
Which one?

Making a horizontal wrist (grip) motion by trying to flatten the right wrist through impact.....

Doesn't Mr. Kelley state (4-D-1) Hitters, especially, must learn to straighten the Right Arm without flattening the Right Wrist?

Where to begin? Where to begin?
Make your points, Drew. They are good ones. Let the dialogues begin!
In addition to making a horizontal wrist (grip) motion by trying to flatten the right wrist through impact.....

Tomasello advocates a four-accumulator Swing. A four-accumulator stroke is for Hitting.

If the motion of the number four is action to any degree, it would change the current three barrel to be classified as four barrel pattern.

The right shoulder starts the motion, loading the right arm for hitting. As the right arm is loaded and can move faster than the right shoulder, it will take over the action (thrusting).

A four accumulator hitting stroke, hoewever, is not necessary. The right shoulder action’s, direction and thrust must be so precise if the degree of action is much more than passive motion. The tradeoff of distance vs. direction is not worth the risk.

You can use a four-barrel (accumulator) swing but, there is absolutely no point in it. No advantage can be gained. You will over power the steady force of centrifugal force. Further, centrifugal force will always try to resist any right arm intrusion. Why try if there is no advantage and the possibility of causing potential problems?

Drewitgolf,

Can you give us some background info on your experience with TGM or TGM related areas....ie; years you have studied the book, if you have studied with an authorized instructor(s) of TGM,....do you have a college level education in physics, mathematics, or biomechanics?

DG
Drew Chapman
Currently, Head PGA Golf Professional Highland Country Club Attleboro, MA (19 years)
PGA Member 18 Years
Former President and Director of Education for the Rhode Island PGA.
I have been studying and teaching TGM since 1987.
I, like Homer Kelley, do not have a degree in engineering. I have a B.S. in Business Administration (however, my father and oldest son are engineers; if that counts)

Some of the Authorized Instructors that I have work with at PGA seminars, workshops, business schools etc. include: Ben Doyle, Gregg McHatton, Mike Hebron.

I have also studied the works of Bill McKinney, Bob Schaeffer, Mark Evershed, Tom Tomasello (believe it or not) as well as the forums of Chuck Evans, Brian Manzella and our own Lynn Blake.

I have also studied the scientific works of Dr David Williams, P. Fowlie, John Zumerchik and Theodore P. Jorgensen. I will even include Joe Dante, Alister Corcoran and John Stobbs.


Who said studying TGM was going to be easy?