swinging and hitting

Why couldn't a swinger use right arm thrust ?

Extensor Action is a Non-Accelerating Thrust. Use as much as you can. Although it doesn't Accelerate the Clubhead directly, it contributes to precision of the Accumulators.

Clubhead Lag (7-19) promotes even and steady acceleration, assuring dependable control of distance. The Power Package utilizes four types of Thrust:

1. Accelerating (Accumulators driving the Lever Assemblies)
2. Non-Accelerating (Extensor Action supplying Power Package Mass)
3. Acceleration Control (Lag Pressure Point sensing Clubhead Inertia)
4. “Centrifugal Acceleration” (Centrifugal Force pulling the Clubhead toward its In- Line condition)

Hmm?, there is that 4 Barrel Swing thing.

Originally Posted by Daryl Extensor Action is a Non-Accelerating Thrust. Use as much as you can. Although it doesn't Accelerate the Clubhead directly, it contributes to precision of the Accumulators.



Hmm?, there is that 4 Barrel Swing thing.

Could you please explain Daryl?

The Accumulators, Cocked Left Wrist, Right Hand Roll, Left Arm Across the Chest and Bent Right Arm, are out-of-line conditions. But regardless of their degree of out-of-line, they need to maintain their Alignment to the Plane.

Each Accumulator may Release in a Sequence, #4,#1,#2,#3. They may be omitted or Overlapped. Each will Release On-Plane and continue Tracing the Plane Line. Left Arm Blast-Off, Thrust On-Plane; Right Arm Thrust, On-Plane; Left Wrist Uncock, On-Plane; Right Hand Roll, On-Plane.

Extensor Action keeps the Primary Lever Aligned and adds Rigidness to the Power Package so that it doesn't collapse during the Pivots powerful rotation and cause the Release of any or All of the Accumulators to move Off-Plane.

Thanks, so after all that I take it your answer is yes I could use right arm thrust as a swinger?

Originally Posted by jerry1967 Thanks, so after all that I take it your answer is yes I could use right arm thrust as a swinger?

You're still a swinger if CF uncocks the Left Wrist. The Right Forearm is driven by the Pivot.

Originally Posted by jerry1967 Why couldn't a swinger use right arm thrust ?

"Swinging is Pulling and Hitting is Pushing and thats all."

It is possible to Pull, (Pitch Elbow) and Actively extend the Right Arm. If the Right Elbow leads its pulling isnt it?

Right Arm Swinging. Its not the safest of Right Elbow alignments, tending to muscle tear. You wouldnt pull a car by attaching your right hand to the side of the car and attempting to throw it forward. You wouldnt throw a shot putt. But it can be done for golf. Homer said it was a "beautiful" method, but he also warned of its potential for elbow injury. Not a certainty by any means but there is the potential.

"Swinging is Pulling and Hitting is Pushing and thats all." O.B. Left ......

Originally Posted by Daryl "Swinging is Pulling and Hitting is Pushing and thats all."

Swinging is pulling and pushing.

Hitting is pulling and pushing.

The difference between the two is .... different.

Originally Posted by BerntR Swinging is pulling and pushing.

Hitting is pulling and pushing.

The difference between the two is .... different.

I do agree that most Hitters have some pulling going on, Bernt. But not necessarily all of them. And so , I think to be perfectly accurate you'd have to change the "is" to "can be" in your statement above.

Drive Loading is Pushing and Drag Loading is Pulling and thats all. To paraphrase Homer Kelley. Axe handle vs Rope Handle , Radial vs Longitudinal.

Homer was careful to make the distinction between Drive vs Drag in his "bare bones" identification of the alternate Basic Patterns of 12-1 and 12-2. He didnt label them Hitting and Swinging, after all. 12-1 isnt the only way to Hit but its the bare boned fundamental , Push only place to start. A place from which to graduate and build upon or a place to happily stay forever. Its up to you. There's nothing wrong with 12-1 somewhat rare though it is. Homer thought we'd all become Drive Loading enthusiasts actually. He loved it that much. Most of us dont give it enough of a chance maybe. Perhaps its hard to turn off all the pulling we've been doing previously. Perhaps its the pivot centric golf magazines or the effects of acid rain? I dont know.

There is an account of Homer on a driving range , asking an early A.I. to show him Hitting. When the man took it past Top to End Homer stopped him and insisted that he stop at Top........this was something that puzzled me as I always go to End when I hit. I've since concluded that Homer wasnt looking for just any Hitting pattern but rather he was expecting 12-1. Drive Loading. He did expect his A.I.s to teach 12-1 after all not just gloss over it. And in that case , Drive Loading from End is not a good idea as you have to wait for your Hands to get back to Top, on the top of the straight line Delivery Path before they can start to Drive. They need a clear straight line shot at the Aiming Point. Its a beautiful and simple pattern.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left I do agree that most Hitters have some pulling going on, Bernt. But not necessarily all of them. And so , I think to be perfectly accurate you'd have to change the "is" to "can be" in your statement above.

Drive Loading is Pushing and Drag Loading is Pulling and thats all. To paraphrase Homer Kelley. Axe handle vs Rope Handle , Radial vs Longitudinal.

Homer was careful to make the distinction between Drive vs Drag in his "bare bones" identification of the alternate Basic Patterns of 12-1 and 12-2. He didnt label them Hitting and Swinging, after all. 12-1 isnt the only way to Hit but its the bare boned fundamental , Push only place to start. A place from which to graduate and build upon or a place to happily stay forever. Its up to you. There's nothing wrong with 12-1 somewhat rare though it is. Homer thought we'd all become Drive Loading enthusiasts actually. He loved it that much. Most of us dont give it enough of a chance maybe. Perhaps its hard to turn off all the pulling we've been doing previously. Perhaps its the pivot centric golf magazines or the effects of acid rain? I dont know.

O.B., is 4 barrell hitting, like YODA, pulling with #4 from top then pushing with #1, or is it just a feeling of using #4 along with #1?

Thanks,
Kevin

I really think this swinging vs hitting is one of the weak points in TGM.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left I do agree that most Hitters have some pulling going on, Bernt. But not necessarily all of them. And so , I think to be perfectly accurate you'd have to change the "is" to "can be" in your statement above.

I really mean "is". For anyone who has hopes of breaking 200 on a par 72 course. But show me a hitter who doesnt rotate his left shoulder. Or a hitter who has so little drag that he really doesn't need his left arm ..... but I don't think you can.

Drive Loading is Pushing and Drag Loading is Pulling and thats all. To paraphrase Homer Kelley. Axe handle vs Rope Handle , Radial vs Longitudinal.

The drive loading from top certainly has a lot of drag (pull) during transition for a proper release. I assume that you have a lot of #2 angle at the top....

If you go by a rope handle procedure you still have to do some pushing to create a circular motion. If all you do is pull, you will not wag the dog. You will only walk the dog. In the purest of TSP swings - perhaps even without extencior action, PP#4 will get things started. Wen you rotate the left shoulder, pp#4 will push the primary lever until CF throwout takes over. Then you can "drive it home" with pure rope handling. If all you had was a rotating left shoulder you would never get the action started.

Same thing with the drive loading, basically. A push doesn't make up for a curving motion.

As for axe handling I recommend that you consult your left hand and arm. Do you not feel any pull there at all?

It takes torque to produce a circular motion. A torque is like a simultanous push and pull. A human golfing machine pulls with the left side and pushes with the right, hitting or swinging.

Homer was careful to make the distinction between Drive vs Drag in his "bare bones" identification of the alternate Basic Patterns of 12-1 and 12-2. He didn't label them Hitting and Swinging, after all.

I agree, and I think that was wisely done by Homer. But you can driveload and drag. Or dragload and push. If you go into the nitty gritty of TGM swing with PP#4 and extencior action there's pushing involved.

Drive vs drag: One can be more active than the other. But you need both to create a circular path. None of them is able to produce a swing like motin on their own.

I never have, never will, seen a good hitter without a proper pivot turn, including a proper drag that lasts until well past impact.

12-1 isnt the only way to Hit but its the bare boned fundamental , Push only place to start. A place from which to graduate and build upon or a place to happily stay forever. Its up to you. There's nothing wrong with 12-1 somewhat rare though it is. Homer thought we'd all become Drive Loading enthusiasts actually. He loved it that much.

I do both, and based on what you describe about your own stroke we're doing something similar. When I am at my best (which isn't very often and relly not that good when it comes to it), I have a sort of race condition between the dragging and the driving where I can vary the composition depending on what I want to do with the ball.

Today I hit a ruler straight knock down with my sand wedge into 2 club wind. Without any sign of draw. It was the sweetest shot I've hit for years and I converted the birdie

Hitting it low requires hands forward and a lot of drive loading. And usually produces a strong draw or a hook on my behalf. But this time i managed to counterbalance the punch with some extra dragging through impact.

Most of us dont give it enough of a chance maybe. Perhaps its hard to turn off all the pulling we've been doing previously. Perhaps its the pivot centric golf magazines or the effects of acid rain? I dont know.

I play regularly with a double digit handicapper who really struggles to get his pivot through the shots. He wants to imrpove and works diligently on his stroke. But as long as he quits with his lower body he will never get a consistent stroke. He disconnects with his lower body and often he looses the feel of the club weight in his left hand. He is about 5 inches taller than me and much bigger and stronger. But still I regularly outdrive him with 50-100 yards. Today - for the first time - I somehow managed to convince him to really crank his pivot through the shot and continue to a full finish. He gained some 30-40 yards on his drives even though there was still a lot of compensation involved in getting the clubhead and club face on the vincinity of the right path. And I think for the first time he really could sens what it means to hit the ball hard. We had a really good time because of this.

I'm all for pivot centric approaches. But the pivot isn't just about the left side. When it works properly it pushes and pulls.

There is an account of Homer on a driving range , asking an early A.I. to show him Hitting. When the man took it past Top to End Homer stopped him and insisted that he stop at Top........this was something that puzzled me as I always go to End when I hit. I've since concluded that Homer wasnt looking for just any Hitting pattern but rather he was expecting 12-1. Drive Loading.

I havent' listened to those Homer tapes. Would love to if you care to share.

I think HK expects a hitter to start from the top, taking dead aim with pp#3. No pressure point rotation. When you use pressure point rotation I think it becomes 4 barrel swing (?). And if you don't, but do the pp#4 blast it becomes a 4 barrel hit (?) Please correct me if I've got this wrong.

He did expect his A.I.s to teach 12-1 after all not just gloss over it. And in that case , Drive Loading from End is not a good idea as you have to wait for your Hands to get back to Top, on the top of the straight line Delivery Path before they can start to Drive. They need a clear straight line shot at the Aiming Point. Its a beautiful and simple pattern.

Some of the difference that is different - or so I think - is that when you swing, you swing your primary lever with your shoulder. You use dead hands and after transition the shoulder turn and CF keep your hands where your shoulder turn gives you max leverage.

When you hit, you still swing with you shoulders, but you also swing your primary lever around your left shoulder. You delegate some of the swingers' pivot work to the right arm. But you need a proper pivot action as a basis to be sucessful with the TGM hitting.

A lot of people enters LBG to find a way to improve their game. Some of them turns towards hitting because they haven't learned how to use their pivot properly. And here on LBG they get the message that swinging is drag loading and pivot orientet, while hitting is a thrust with the right arm. Which is probably what 50% tries to do initially. So they get the impression (perhaps) that they can learn to play golf without developing a proper pivot and without developing proper fundamentals.

When the role of the pivot and dragging is so underplayed in the hitting pattern description they get the impression that they can learn to strike the golf ball by using the right tricep only. While I may be exaggerating here, there's certainly more than a little truth in it.

Dragging and driving is yin and yang in golf. You can perhaps emphasize one over the other, but you still need the other to make your choosen one work.

If I recall correct, Homer recommended to learn swinging before trying hitting. I totally agree. I actually regard hitting or any other form of drive loading as a refinement and adjustment to an already functioning basic swing motion.

And I love to watch videos of Yoda hitting the ball. The man has a great looking stroke. What he does with his right tricep has very little to do with why it looks so good to me. What he does with his feet, hips, torso and shoulders have everything to to with it. The signatur of his stroke looks almost similar when he's swinging and it takes a really trained eye to spot the difference. I think that says a lot about the similarities between the two patterns.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left "Swinging is Pulling and Hitting is Pushing and thats all."

It is possible to Pull, (Pitch Elbow) and Actively extend the Right Arm. If the Right Elbow leads its pulling isnt it?

Right Arm Swinging. Its not the safest of Right Elbow alignments, tending to muscle tear. You wouldnt pull a car by attaching your right hand to the side of the car and attempting to throw it forward. You wouldnt throw a shot putt. But it can be done for golf. Homer said it was a "beautiful" method, but he also warned of its potential for elbow injury. Not a certainty by any means but there is the potential.

Take my word for it! You can hurt your right elbow if you hit with a pitch right elbow position. BUT. you can hit with a punch position after pulling.

The "Bin there, don that" Bear

Originally Posted by HungryBear Take my word for it! You can hurt your right elbow if you hit with a pitch right elbow position. BUT. you can hit with a punch position after pulling.

The "Bin there, don that" Bear

Yup, me too. Had to start wearing my old squash, arm band for a while.

Now, when Im hitting it is most often not Drive Loading per 12-1. I employ a Swingers Startdown, Drag Loading then a Right Arm Throw. Drag then Drive with a Punch elbow and a late Random Sweep Release.....well as late as I can get it anyways. The earlier I Thrust against the #1 the earlier the Left Hand comes off the Inclined Plane, the earlier I Release, the more Push like my elbow. As if the Right Elbow aligns itself for pushing if I Release earlier. Although lately Ive slipped into an Automatic Release which maybe has me swinging..... Whether Im swinging or hitting is a fine line divided by the employment of the Right Arm Throw or not. They look very similar on tape , maybe if I stuck with Swinging for a while I'd approach a more Pitch like Right Elbow alignment but ......I keep going back and forth on Thrusting and so my elbow is Punch. I dont have much feel for #2 angle or the delay of, its more active Right Elbow in perception and feel for me.

There's this debate in some circles as to whether you can Pull and Push at the same time........ I'd say you can for pure Radial Acceleration , putting say for instance, but why would you want to for such a low powered shot? You can not employ Longitudinal Acceleration and Radial Acceleration at the same time , they are mutually exclusive. And so, you cant Drag and Drive Load at the same time from Top. One or the other or Drag then Drive later.

These debates always come down to definition. Homer wasnt wrong about it if you stick to his terminology and definitions. If you Radially accelerate Longitudinal Acceleration is over. Another way of saying this that you can only Push and Pull at the same time if you are pushing and pulling in the same direction. Pulling from Top , Drag Loading and Pushing, Drive Loading are not similarly Aligned. They bend the shaft along different axis.....90 degrees to each other. A "quarter turn" on the shaft , each with their own associated Lag Pressure Point location and Right Forearm alignment for support. All a product of the direction of Loading alone not because of a "quarter turn" of anything. Top or aft of shaft.......you cant load them both at the same time.

Before I understood this I used to like the feel of loading my #3pp at the index finger, trigger finger, first joint on the way back which had me over swiveling it under plane. It felt good but was wrong, a false feel if you will. Now I load the knuckle and presto Im on plane. No more wagging it under plane like Ray Floyd. I changed a feel and fixed my direction of Loading and Plane compliance. But like I said I Drag Load in Startdown, dont load the knuckle if you are a Drive Loader.

One or the other or Drag then Drive later.




I like this, it should work. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left "Swinging is Pulling and Hitting is Pushing and thats all."

It is possible to Pull, (Pitch Elbow) and Actively extend the Right Arm. If the Right Elbow leads its pulling isnt it?

Right Arm Swinging. Its not the safest of Right Elbow alignments, tending to muscle tear. You wouldnt pull a car by attaching your right hand to the side of the car and attempting to throw it forward. You wouldnt throw a shot putt. But it can be done for golf. Homer said it was a "beautiful" method, but he also warned of its potential for elbow injury. Not a certainty by any means but there is the potential.

It still sounds like an active move with the right arm which I contend is not swinging. I am probably not literal to the book but thats my take.

You cant do both pulling and pushing in a swing the way I see it. The right arm is just keeping up with the left arm blast off and thus would not be able to thrust. I am sure this thought is nothing new around here.