Full Blades/Musclebacks/ or Perimeter Weighted for #3 PP?

I was feeling the # 3 PP flow DOWN and OUT tonight and I was using my Callaway clone HT perimeter weighted irons. I switched to an old Hogan Apex 3 iron.


WOW! The lag speed and feel of the Hogan Apex went straight were I aimed it like greased lightening. When I hit the clones, they seemed to demand more tracing and less thrusting.

My imagination? Value Golf sells nice clone clubs inexpensively, like Bang-o-matic, Snake Eyes, Dynacraft and they sell forged/ muscle backs, whatever for $200 - $300.

On the other hand, I hit a set of Mizuno game improvement irons a month ago and they were fine and about $900!


Ideas, suggestions?


ICT

Originally Posted by innercityteacher I was feeling the # 3 PP flow DOWN and OUT tonight and I was using my Callaway clone HT perimeter weighted irons. I switched to an old Hogan Apex 3 iron.


WOW! The lag speed and feel of the Hogan Apex went straight were I aimed it like greased lightening. When I hit the clones, they seemed to demand more tracing and less thrusting.

My imagination? Value Golf sells nice clone clubs inexpensively, like Bang-o-matic, Snake Eyes, Dynacraft and they sell forged/ muscle backs, whatever for $200 - $300.

On the other hand, I hit a set of Mizuno game improvement irons a month ago and they were fine and about $900!


Ideas, suggestions?


ICT

Get some blades and a raft of hybrids.

For me, shaft flex has a lot to do with how well the club responds. I like to push hard on the shaft right before and into impact. With the right shaft I get added distance. If the shaft is to weak I don't get the reght kind of resistance to the thrusting. If it's too stiff I really have to add some extra with timing. But when it's just right.

I actually believe that the wrong flex will mess with the rhythm if you have some drive loading in there.

I played 9 holes / 2 balls with a set of vintage blades on Sunday. 8th tee - 3 iron. They would be ideal for practice if the shafts were stiffer, but they are regular: First ball a strong draw - almost a hook. Good distance. Second ball: Feels perfect - sweet spot - high draw - straight down the line - and 30 yards shorter.

Reminds me of when I used to play weaker iron shafts than today. I never quite figured out how to hit the ball to get the right distance. I had to deliberately max the thrust some distance before impact to get a good result. But I couldn't feel the difference between a good shot and one that flopped.

These things never happen to me when I play with stiffer shafts.

With stiffer shafts I get a much more predictable result and distance control. Higher COG possibly makes a difference too.

BTW, I can't stand the big offset in the game improvement clubs. It messes with my aiming.

Originally Posted by BerntR For me, shaft flex has a lot to do with how well the club responds. I like to push hard on the shaft right before and into impact. With the right shaft I get added distance. If the shaft is to weak I don't get the reght kind of resistance to the thrusting. If it's too stiff I really have to add some extra with timing. But when it's just right.

I actually believe that the wrong flex will mess with the rhythm if you have some drive loading in there.

I played 9 holes / 2 balls with a set of vintage blades on Sunday. 8th tee - 3 iron. They would be ideal for practice if the shafts were stiffer, but they are regular: First ball a strong draw - almost a hook. Good distance. Second ball: Feels perfect - sweet spot - high draw - straight down the line - and 30 yards shorter.

Reminds me of when I used to play weaker iron shafts than today. I never quite figured out how to hit the ball to get the right distance. I had to deliberately max the thrust some distance before impact to get a good result. But I couldn't feel the difference between a good shot and one that flopped.

These things never happen to me when I play with stiffer shafts.

With stiffer shafts I get a much more predictable result and distance control. Higher COG possibly makes a difference too.

BTW, I can't stand the big offset in the game improvement clubs. It messes with my aiming.

Both of you have given me some important insights. If I may pick at some of the new insights...

1) "Pushing hard on a shaft..." This mystifies me. How can you push hard on a shaft without throwing out the clubhead, unless... you are extending the elbow and pushing both # 1 PP and # 2 PP simultaneously. Does the stiffer shaft keep less flex and more uniformity in the lever and club, like pushing a board?

1.5) Do you monitor your lever at all? What I'm sensing as the feeling # 3 PP grows in my hands, and with OB and Daryl's input, is that the ideal is not to notice anything but your hands. Once LAG is "caught," both hands are thrust or swung as quickly as possible ahead of the clubhead. I have done this and it almost impossible to monitor. Both arms are thrust at the ball, period. What's not logical is the explosive force of the hit when that happens. It always surprises me. And you're saying that a stiffer shaft amplifies the strike?

2) I understand why the offset would be upsetting, Bernt. My driver is not offset. When I thrust with that club and senior shaft the ball never wants to come down (Adams old 9.5 Redline).

3) Ed, what constitutes a good club fitter? Is there a website/several, well known standards? With a shorter front leg, perhaps a shorter club length...we'll see!

Thanks, men!

ICT

Until the objective of the swing is to strike the ball on the perimeter of the clubhead I'll stay with muscle-back designs. Last I heard we were still supposed to hit the sweetspot.

CG

Originally Posted by cometgolfer Until the objective of the swing is to strike the ball on the perimeter of the clubhead I'll stay with muscle-back designs. Last I heard we were still supposed to hit the sweetspot.

CG

Ok, no-offset, musclebacks. I'll hit a few clones and any other recommendations?



ICT

The cb vs mb argument has probably been hashed out here before. My input is that you've probably gotten a sneak peek at just how good the mb's can perform based on your brief experience with the Apex. Too many people have been duped into thinking all they can hit are big cb designs. I contend they never give mb's a real chance. One or 2 miss-hits and they scramble back to the frying pans. They usually start that experiment with a pre-conceived notion anyways.

Don't think you can't hit the sweetspot or get real close to it. It's just hard to know if you are or aren't with most of the game-improvement stuff they make. Feedback is what allows you to get better at hitting the sweetspot.

Excellent quality (but older) mb designs are all over ebay for a song.

CG

Innercityteacher,

1) I push mostly on pp#1 initially. There will be more pp#3 towards the ball of course.

But remember we're talking about educated hands here, they know where they need to go and how to get there.

Then there's a "catch me if you can" game between the driveloading and the pivot. A game that the driveloading should never win in my stroke pattern. It catches up with some of the pivot lag but it never overtakes the pivot lag pressure. The lag pressure from the rope handling is maxed at impact.

1.5) Monitoring:

Impact is in the spotligth of my monitoring system. It's in the middle of my mind all the time. The further away from the ball, the more blurred the monitoring is. In two ways. More focus on the impact zone than the transition and follow thru, and more focus on the club than the hands. And more focus on the hands than other body parts. The hands are possible the most important monitoring device.

This is certainly an area of shades of gray and semantic traps. It is very easy to get reductionistic when discussing this topic, too easy to paint the dark grey parts black and omit the lighter gray parts altogether. The brain works in hierarcic ways. I believe you can basically monitor everything that conserns your golf stroke in real time. Further I believe that good players have greater awareness (monitoring skills + intuitive understanding) of what happens in their stroke than the rest of us.

2) Distance hasn't anything to do with my issue with offset. The offset carries an illusion of a closed clubface that is really disturbing to me when I stand over the ball. I see the shot better with a clean leading edge.

The offset also carries a small amount of added loft but that part is insignificant to me.

Originally Posted by BerntR Innercityteacher,

1) I push mostly on pp#1 initially. There will be more pp#3 towards the ball of course.

But remember we're talking about educated hands here, they know where they need to go and how to get there.

Then there's a "catch me if you can" game between the driveloading and the pivot. A game that the driveloading should never win in my stroke pattern. It catches up with some of the pivot lag but it never overtakes the pivot lag pressure. The lag pressure from the rope handling is maxed at impact.

1.5) Monitoring:

Impact is in the spotligth of my monitoring system. It's in the middle of my mind all the time. The further away from the ball, the more blurred the monitoring is. In two ways. More focus on the impact zone than the transition and follow thru, and more focus on the club than the hands. And more focus on the hands than other body parts. The hands are possible the most important monitoring device.

This is certainly an area of shades of gray and semantic traps. It is very easy to get reductionistic when discussing this topic, too easy to paint the dark grey parts black and omit the lighter gray parts altogether. The brain works in hierarcic ways. I believe you can basically monitor everything that conserns your golf stroke in real time. Further I believe that good players have greater awareness (monitoring skills + intuitive understanding) of what happens in their stroke than the rest of us.

2) Distance hasn't anything to do with my issue with offset. The offset carries an illusion of a closed clubface that is really disturbing to me when I stand over the ball. I see the shot better with a clean leading edge.

The offset also carries a small amount of added loft but that part is insignificant to me.

Semantic traps indeed! Some people live for them which means they never quite got over the sound of their own confusion!

One of the many nice things to say about LBG and TGM generally. There is something to say and discuss and so we use specific terms to "grab" an important issue and hope our candles and Lynn's 10 million watt floodlight do the trick.

I'm thinking you have a large floodlight of your own as do many others here. I'm feeling like a package of birthday candles, myself, but it's a start! Whoopee!

So then, I glide along with the Pivot, sipping my Gin and Tonic, slowly, due to my Gout, and as I approach the ball I drive # 1 PP through China and that's it!

It was late last night and I was reading OB, somewhere, and he was mentioning driving the right shoulder. I would love to RFT/EA /Hula and drive my right shoulder DOWN and OUT (which TGM has turned into a positive). We are talking about the same thing, correct, as hitters, but not as Swingers?

ICT

I regard myself as a swinger with driveloading added. Most of the time I rotate pp#3 at the top. A switter? No-no-no. Usually I swing through impact so I guess you can call me a hinger

Originally Posted by BerntR Innercityteacher,

1) I push mostly on pp#1 initially. There will be more pp#3 towards the ball of course.

But remember we're talking about educated hands here, they know where they need to go and how to get there.

Then there's a "catch me if you can" game between the driveloading and the pivot. A game that the driveloading should never win in my stroke pattern. It catches up with some of the pivot lag but it never overtakes the pivot lag pressure. The lag pressure from the rope handling is maxed at impact.

1.5) Monitoring:

Impact is in the spotligth of my monitoring system. It's in the middle of my mind all the time. The further away from the ball, the more blurred the monitoring is. In two ways. More focus on the impact zone than the transition and follow thru, and more focus on the club than the hands. And more focus on the hands than other body parts. The hands are possible the most important monitoring device.

This is certainly an area of shades of gray and semantic traps. It is very easy to get reductionistic when discussing this topic, too easy to paint the dark grey parts black and omit the lighter gray parts altogether. The brain works in hierarcic ways. I believe you can basically monitor everything that conserns your golf stroke in real time. Further I believe that good players have greater awareness (monitoring skills + intuitive understanding) of what happens in their stroke than the rest of us.

2) Distance hasn't anything to do with my issue with offset. The offset carries an illusion of a closed clubface that is really disturbing to me when I stand over the ball. I see the shot better with a clean leading edge.

The offset also carries a small amount of added loft but that part is insignificant to me.

I agree with you 1.5. The problem for me is, I have to be very, very careful that "monitoring" doesn't turn into "directing". That is my pitfall. Trying to direct all the actions versus making a good, athletic move with the end in mind...you just can't think your way through the half second of down, out and forward. You can feel it, though.

Originally Posted by brianmontgomery2000 I agree with you 1.5. The problem for me is, I have to be very, very careful that "monitoring" doesn't turn into "directing". That is my pitfall. Trying to direct all the actions versus making a good, athletic move with the end in mind...you just can't think your way through the half second of down, out and forward. You can feel it, though.

More ZB stuff. With a stable head and proper set-up, RFT/EA will do the trick. I'm liking the BRW lead of the club back though, a lot!

There is no way I can flick my #3 PP back (and simultaneously trace the BLP, LOOK, LOOK, LOOK) and not generate massive LAG for my elbow thrust to use.

Distances are messed up in a good way. All I'm doing when Hitting is TRACING BLP with # 3 PP to my shoulder (smoother is better), Thrusting (Punching) DOWN, and making sure my ball is slightly ahead of my belt buckle. I can sweep the shots too with Standard Address.
PW -130 yards carry and rolls, Hitting, and more Sweeping/Swinging
9 - 140 " " "
8 - 150+ "
7 - 160 +
6 - close to the 175 yard fence and 5 and 4 irons are into the fence on the fly! The sound is very cool, too.

ICT

Originally Posted by innercityteacher I was feeling the # 3 PP flow DOWN and OUT tonight and I was using my Callaway clone HT perimeter weighted irons. I switched to an old Hogan Apex 3 iron.


WOW! The lag speed and feel of the Hogan Apex went straight were I aimed it like greased lightening. When I hit the clones, they seemed to demand more tracing and less thrusting.

My imagination? Value Golf sells nice clone clubs inexpensively, like Bang-o-matic, Snake Eyes, Dynacraft and they sell forged/ muscle backs, whatever for $200 - $300.

On the other hand, I hit a set of Mizuno game improvement irons a month ago and they were fine and about $900!


Ideas, suggestions?


ICT

A proper fit makes a HUGE difference. I have no problems with clones or any brand for that matter, but if it doesn't fit you it won't matter if it is the most expensive or the cheapest.

that said, blades are no doubt the best for feel, but there are a ton of really good designs out there now that weren't around 10 years ago that can still provide great feedback, and reasonable forgiveness

Aside from feel/feedback, blades are much, much easier to play in the wind - that is the main issue I have with my Ping i5's - very difficult to knock down compared to my MacGregor 1025M's

I once experimented with a cheap set of clone blades off ebay (I think they were like $99 'new'), and I was surprised at how well they played - but I wouldn't play them other than to practice because they were obviously no where near as refined as a name brand blade


bottom line is you simply have to get out and hit a lot of different designs/shafts and work with a good fitter

think of it this way - you can drive an old vw bug, or a bmw, both get you down the road, but one of them is clearly more fun!

(as Ted and Curt can attest from the Barclay's, some of them are REALLY fun)

Agree with what EdZ says about knock down & blades here.

I was playing Tommy Armour 845S before and I basically had to take out a long iron to be certain that the ball went low. Switched to Mizuno MP 32 and I could hit hard down on the ball with a 7 and get the ball as low as I wanted. Huge difference in playability.

But beware of flexi shafts too. The shaft probably makes as huge difference as the heads.

Originally Posted by brownman As the heading suggests,I have now installed some VERY OLDE Henry Cotton muscle-back blade irons.
I initially purchased them some mths back mainly for their looks and cost,,,,$30.00 on evil bay,they took up residence in the shed until I bought some lamkin grips for $20.00,bought D/sided tape for $20.00 (nuff for 2 sets)and white spirits for $5.00.....All up..$75.00,,I had to lenghten x 1.5" as they were too short.

Took them out on maiden game yesterday and they were FANTASTIC.... so now,my VERY good Hiro Honma blades are having a rest in the shed.

Goes to show you can actually play good golf even with OLD clubs,they have a very penetrating ballflight but they have very soft feel(unless its misshit) that hurts,lol,it by the way came from 2ir thru to S/wedge although the s/wedge is called "the Howitzer"........enough of waffle from me,just thought I would share with you ....cheers B/man

pics ...sorry

Lovely set of wrenches there, Brownman. I am eyeing that putter with envy as well.

Thank you Jerryg,its a spalding Bros "KROFLITE",I bought a very canvas bag with old kroflites just for the putter .

Works well looks good,if u have a steep downhill putt,I use the toe of putter and still able to have a solid stroke and it rolls nice and soft.Did you notice the BEVELLED front bottom edge

Originally Posted by brownman Thank you Jerryg,its a spalding Bros "KROFLITE",I bought a very canvas bag with old kroflites just for the putter .

Works well looks good,if u have a steep downhill putt,I use the toe of putter and still able to have a solid stroke and it rolls nice and soft.Did you notice the BEVELLED front bottom edge

The "TourStriker" putter!

Kevin

Originally Posted by KevCarter The "TourStriker" putter!

Kevin

Geez, Kev, just what I thought when I looked at that thing. Great looking putter, Brownman. Some of that old stuff is still very utilitarian. I have an old Aristo putter that is fun to use.