Swingers, hitters, and, "*"ers

TGM creates 2 categories, Swingers and Hitters.

I would be interested in hearing others opinion and a third category, not mentioned in TGM, the THROWER.

Does the category exist and how does it square with TGM?

Which TGM alignments would be compatible with the "THROWER”?

The Bear

What is the source of power?

A spin like a hammer throw or drive load "throw" (i.e. hard flip?)?

A switter or 4 barrel hitter combo?

I thought power source was the basis for having only a bifurcated tree at the very top for types of golf swing...

Diagram 2-C-3 is a thrower if by that term you mean throwawayer. Intentional throwaway when used by design. Or the Pause Minor Basic Stroke although its maybe Intentional Quitting and Throwing.

Also somewhere, cant remember where Homer said that even the guys on tour can have some amount of throwaway but if separation occurs prior to the overtaking of the hands by the clubhead the law of the flail still rules and the shot is not lost. Going all the way down and out isnt that common maybe.

My apologies if you are referring to Pitch Elbow or Active Right Arm extension with a Punch Elbow which is very much like a side arm throwing motion , especially when done with the Aiming Point Procedure or the Right Arm Swing or or or ..

Longitudinal or Radial. Two available alignments to accelerate the Club. Swing or Hit.

Originally Posted by HungryBear [Sorry Daryl, Your visibility makes your answer convenient as a general expansion point for the thread theme}

Maybe both- longitudinal acceleration of a radial motion.

Now.

Maybe the answer is in Chapter #13.

Maybe it’s not- and that’s why Chapter #13 is so short.

Maybe Chapter #13 is wrong, either in the specific instant or in general.

Gasp! Horrors?

The Bear

I've just looked at chapter 13 in both 6 and 7. I must be a little dense, no surprise, but I can't figure out the point you are trying to make?

Kevin

Originally Posted by HungryBear I said;

"Maybe both- longitudinal acceleration of a radial motion."

For instance - Zero Hip Action is the Hip Action that is compatible with Zero Pivot. Again - Straight Line Power Package Delivery is not possible with the Shiftless Hip Turn. Again - Pull Stroke (Left Arm Swing) rules out the use of Radial Acceleration (10-19-A).

Seems to me Daryl had it right...

Originally Posted by HungryBear I said;
Pull stroke rules out the use of Radial Acceleratioon (10-19-A)

How the rope handling powers the stroke is IMO one of the most misunderstood topics of TGM.

The only way you can create clubhead speed is to pull from ahead or push from behind. The physics involved is very simple.

If you want to create speed by pulling - on a linear path, you'd better run fast If you do it on a circular path, you need to pull from something that rotates and stays ahead on the curve. Like turning left shoulder. Or the turning hands, kept out in orbit and ahead of the clubhead by extencior action. Luckily, that's what happens when you do the rope handling thing.

Anything you do to speed up the club can be decomposed as pulling and pushing (and torquing if you wish). Newton is very clear on this point: In order to do any work (and work here is create clubhead speed) you have to apply forces with the same direction as the motion. Pulling a rope from a swing center (centripetal acceleration) doesn't increase or reduce swing speed no matter how heavy it feels. It only conserves. Pulling from a point that is leading ahead on the curve and torqed around the swing center conservs and increases at the same time.

As long as the left shoulder stays ahead of the hands, and the hands stays ahead of the clubhead in the turn, any pulling will add speed. If you try to push on a straight line you will run out of arms in no time. Hitting and swinging are both depending on a turning pivot that leads the hands through impact.

Originally Posted by HungryBear TGM creates 2 categories, Swingers and Hitters.

I would be interested in hearing others opinion and a third category, not mentioned in TGM, the THROWER.

Does the category exist and how does it square with TGM?
Which TGM alignments would be compatible with the "THROWER”?

The Bear

Hey Bear

In short , Id say that the Thrower pattern as outlined by Ralph Sunnyside can be found in the yellow book. But not as a "third category". RS defines three basic actions: muscular thrust , weight shift and rotation. Homer stuck to pushing vs pulling and didnt rank weight shift as even a power accumulator now that I think about it. Hmmmm. Its all a matter of definition again.

These sorts of discussions are really good I believe. Definition leading to identification . Identification to separation. Separation to mastery (or to insanity perhaps, not sure right now).

Couple of quick points:
-he's talking about hitting as a right arm punch , not so for Major Basic strokes....see what Homer termed the "Right Arm Throw". Its another throwing like motion this time with Active Right Arm extension. Push Basic is the inline punch of the right arm..........for short shots only.
-Hitters have pivot lag in Total Motion.
-I like D's point about longitudinal vs radial .......its a big subject so Im not going to start into it here. I love Bernts post too. In regard to what is mutually exclusive Id suggest that's it. You can not Longitudinal and Radial at the same time. (Can you?) Longitudinal then Radial? ....sure even 12-2 has Radial. In a motor boat pulling a skier kinda way (nothing pushes the skier radially, the boat turns around the small pulley wheel and cf throws the skier out, the speed of the skier going from the boats speed to boat speed plus plus). Or you could Radial only, 12-1 Drive Loading. (not the only way to hit by anymeans). But not Radial then Longitudinal or Longitudinal only. Longitudinal doest have any associated CF throwout. 'Cause its traveling in a straight line. If you're "arrow from quivering" you're not Releasing. This is the straight line hand path , be it theoretical or real.
-I thought I said I wasnt going to get into this, no I didnt, yes I did! ... .... ( No I didnt.) Uh Oh this aint mastery this is insanity.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Hey Bear

In short , Id say that the Thrower pattern as outlined by Ralph Sunnyside can be found in the yellow book. But not as a "third category". RS defines three basic actions: muscular thrust , weight shift and rotation. Homer stuck to pushing vs pulling and didnt rank weight shift as even a power accumulator now that I think about it. Hmmmm. Its all a matter of definition again.

These sorts of discussions are really good I believe. Definition leading to identification . Identification to separation. Separation to mastery (or to insanity perhaps, not sure right now).

Couple of quick points:
-he's talking about hitting as a right arm punch , not so for Major Basic strokes....see what Homer termed the "Right Arm Throw". Its another throwing like motion this time with Active Right Arm extension. Push Basic is the inline punch of the right arm..........for short shots only.
-Hitters have pivot lag in Total Motion.
-I like D's point about longitudinal vs radial .......its a big subject so Im not going to start into it here. I love Bernts post too. In regard to what is mutually exclusive Id suggest that's it. You can not Longitudinal and Radial at the same time. (Can you?) Longitudinal then Radial? ....sure even 12-2 has Radial. In a motor boat pulling a skier kinda way (nothing pushes the skier radially, the boat turns around the small pulley wheel and cf throws the skier out, the speed of the skier going from the boats speed to boat speed plus plus). Or you could Radial only, 12-1 Drive Loading. (not the only way to hit by anymeans). But not Radial then Longitudinal or Longitudinal only. Longitudinal doest have any associated CF throwout. 'Cause its traveling in a straight line. If you're "arrow from quivering" you're not Releasing. This is the straight line hand path , be it theoretical or real.
-I thought I said I wasnt going to get into this, no I didnt, yes I did! ... .... ( No I didnt.) Uh Oh this aint mastery this is insanity.

Thanks O.B.

Perhaps the subject should not be approached.

There is sameness and difference.

As I understand. The sameness is in the 24 components. The differences are within the selection of elements within each of the 24.

HK says there is no THE WAY. Selection becomes personal.

BUT

2 categories were implicitly created, hit or swing, which may create a de facto THE WAY. 2 actions-hit or swing.

Should this be?

Chapter 12 creates a pattern selection process and these 2 selected patterns.

But aren't these patterns hortatory, not obligatory? Then why?

The only touch-point is 10-19-(A for one and C for the other or B for either)?

I did not push Humpty-Dumpty off the wall, I just nudged him, Chapter 14 is for pushing.


“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.”
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!”

You’re going to have to ask the Judge what that means.

The Bear

Is there something outside of pushing and pulling? Can you longitudinal and radial at the same time? Can you walk in a circle and a straight line at the same time?

Ill ask Susan or John even, when Im ten feet tall............

Originally Posted by HungryBear Thanks O.B.

Perhaps the subject should not be approached.

There is sameness and difference.

As I understand. The sameness is in the 24 components. The differences are within the selection of elements within each of the 24.

HK says there is no THE WAY. Selection becomes personal.

BUT

2 categories were implicitly created, hit or swing, which may create a de facto THE WAY. 2 actions-hit or swing.

Should this be?

Chapter 12 creates a pattern selection process and these 2 selected patterns.

But aren't these patterns hortatory, not obligatory? Then why?

The only touch-point is 10-19-(A for one and C for the other or B for either)?

I did not push Humpty-Dumpty off the wall, I just nudged him, Chapter 14 is for pushing.


“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.”
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!”

You’re going to have to ask the Judge what that means.

The Bear

But I am limited to standing on the ground with two feet. I can either pull or push. I can rotate with either or both feet planted and then I both pull and push depending on the rest of the moves being made.

Now, "Alice" and her friends are works of fiction. I really like fiction but only as it furthers the understanding of facts. I can't remember the book title but the point of the book was that human language needs to be repetitive and a much smaller circle than pure mathematics since there is a very short list of what can happen to a person. There is "nothing new under the sun." However, there are new technologies that happen all the time. A person can hit a golf ball. They can hit it with lots of differing technologies. So the event list of what we can do is rather short but the instrument list is rather undefined. Jerry plays music but does so on different instruments in different places to differing degrees of excellence but it is still playing music.

We push and pull a golf club (nice and simple Bernt ) though we might have cork in the driver or Kevlar.

Alice and HD are arguing about something a lot less grounded than our biomechanical frame. You might be a reader of some of the literary dust-ups in England or France over the use of commas or what constitutes a "real" word. Good fun! And in your quote, as I understand it, HD is actually backing itself into Alice's point. Anyway, good fun, great book!

I would think that Ernest Jones would be an interesting study regarding this idea. Lag the penknife back and through but thrusting for him was tough, I bet.

ICT

I have a difficult time picturing how a person with two hands couldn't pull and push simultaneously.

Why couldn't they?

Works well for turning shopping carts.

Can the same hand push and pull? I don't see how.

Can one hand push and and hand pull? I don't see why not.

Is it a good thing? Wish I knew.

Seems like, in theory, it would be worth investigating.

Originally Posted by John Graham I have a difficult time picturing how a person with two hands couldn't pull and push simultaneously.

Why couldn't they?

Works well for turning shopping carts.

Can the same hand push and pull? I don't see how.

Can one hand push and and hand pull? I don't see why not.

Is it a good thing? Wish I knew.

Seems like, in theory, it would be worth investigating.

You can push and pull at the same time BUT there are implications. The implications dependent upon what point you are at in the swing. For instance if you were in start down, pushing at the #1 is radial and will destroy the pullings longitudinal....so they are at cross purposes. Mutually exclusive in terms of longitudinal and radial. Longitudinal delaying release , radial being release.

Now take pulling radially and pushing radially say in a putting stroke or in the case of a push/pull initiated during the radial acceleration portion of a full stroke ........You can do this as well. This time with no disruption of longitudinal because it assumed to be not present in the first place, BUT here you are subject to the fact that the right arm push and the left arm pull no not have the same directional vectors to their respective forces. Their forces are not aligned , not pointing in the same exact direction. The arms themselves attach to the body at different places , opposite shoulders and therefor their associated movements are not identical nor is the direction of the force they apply. Scattered vectors being a disruption to Total Compression 2-C. Two horses bridled to a cart but pointing in different directions. The extent to which you employ them together at the same time is the extent to which you will have compensate for the inherent divergence in their vectors. This maybe the #1 reason for my improved putting , that and Hinge Action. Although I go back and forth between pulling it back with the right and then pulling it through with the left or pushing it through with the right or rocking the shoulders it through all with one accumulator and Angled Hinge Action. Ah component separation , thank you Lynn. But I digress.

Homer's prescription: Pull (swing) or Push (hit) or Pull then Push (four b) but dont push and pull at the same time , its especially damaging in Startdown , less so during radial acceleration but still incredibly disruptive given the critical nature of that stage....impact, putting etc.

Even on the way back in the backswing HOmer tried to separate Pulling and Pushing. The Push of the shoulder turn takeaway, which is inept at getting the club UP (in Total Motion) and instead tends to take it IN too much , under plane, ........gives way to a Right Forearm Takeaway or "Pick up" which is a definite Pull. So Swinger and Hitter alike both Pull on the way back, be it a "swing back" or a "carry back". That isnt to say you cant employ a Shoulder Turn takeaway.............. Bobby Clampett , Plummer and B, Mac even maybe ........ But Homer preferred a Pull there. Like Seve employed. Yes Seve......its in his book. The Paderno of his youth was safely removed from the golf digests of the 60's and early 70's.

Push or Pull or Pull then Push but dont push and pull at the same time if you want to be straight as well as powerful.

Im not saying you cant Throw it. I do. To my mind you can actively " throw" a push or a pull. Hit or Right Arm Swing. The "throw" also seems to lie within the distinction of the position of the right elbow to me.......Push vs Punch. Push basic (short shots only) vs Right Arm throw, fanning and bending. I Right Arm Throw, right after I Throw my Right s
Shoulder. Just as I was taught to do......at the Swamp and Cuscowilla.

In fact Id go so far as to say that if anyone here is trying to Hit, full shots, total motion, with an inline "punching", shot putting, Push Basic motion ............. STOP. Ralph demonstrates his definition of a Hit as being inline push with a sort of knock down type abbreviated follow through. Thats a different fish......... a different argument ..........a knock down argument per Humpty Dumpty.