Came across an article that talks about Haney's philosophy regarding the Swing Plane / Angle.
If David Leadbetter promotes a "setting" of the club early in the backswing, if Harmon's clients tend to swing more vertically and re-route the club slightly on the downswing, Haney preaches the pursuit of absolute symmetry from start to finish, described by some as a perfect circle. "Hank teaches a more rounded move," Miller says. "You'd think that would result in a draw, but the funny thing is, since Tiger got with Haney, he's lost his hook. I like that he's hitting the ball with a tiny fade. That's a big improvement."
Haney doesn't disagree with those impressions but is willing to expound on his process of achieving an ideal swing plane: "My idea is that there is no one 'plane' in the golf swing, but there is one plane angle," he says. "Any [backswing] short of parallel should result in the club pointing left of the target line by the same amount. If you're 40 degrees short of parallel, you need to be 40 degrees left of the target. That is the key to getting the golf club to come down with the proper rotation of the arms.
"Why would you teach re-routing the club when you can strive for perfect symmetry?" -- Hank Haney
"That's why you don't hear Tiger saying he's getting 'stuck' anymore -- because his club is no longer crossing the line," Haney adds. "People who re-route the club tend to get stuck. Why would you teach re-routing the club when you can strive for perfect symmetry? I'm not saying there's an absolute right or wrong way of doing things, but that is what I teach. There are a lot of different ways of doing it, and Tiger Woods was incredibly successful doing things differently than the way he's doing them now."
Is this from the recent Golf Digest? I read Hardy's article but didn't see the Haney stuff.
Take a look at the 2 pictures of tiger in that article at the middle of the page.
In pic #1, he is slightly flat and has an overly arched wrist -
but in pic#2
can you say "flying wedges"?
dead on IMO..... "the shadow knows"
Edz, I think that Tiger always had the flying wedges. Seems evident in all the pics from this gallery
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/80234/1/2789457
Just my opinion, every good ballstriker seems to have the three imperatives, whether they know it or not!
I like his flying wedges at the top. I also like the way his right forearm is supporting the clubshaft.
His wedges look pretty good post-impact.
Whoops! Who's that at impact?
I don't like the new tiger swing as much as the old 2000-01 one.
Woods makes his instructors look good. Somehow he's smart enough to keep them away from his imperatives. His set at End is great, from there it's STILL a coin toss because the hips are going to get him. Woods still hasn't hit much more than half the fairways in his wins. I think he's around 150th in driving accuracy. So are Mickelson and Els.
Direction means next to zero on the tour. Raw distance and the ability to yank a wedge out of the ever shortening tour rough are the keys to winning now. If Haney's swing methodology helped Woods with that, then he deserves kudos.
BTW, that 3rd picture of the guy on the Hooters Tour (the jeans gave him away) is a definte up-and-comer. Impact position indicates both power and control. Get his name, we'll have to keep an eye on him.
Charlie
Originally Posted by Theodan
Woods makes his instructors look good. Somehow he's smart enough to keep them away from his imperatives. His set at End is great, from there it's STILL a coin toss because the hips are going to get him. Woods still hasn't hit much more than half the fairways in his wins. I think he's around 150th in driving accuracy. So are Mickelson and Els.
Direction means next to zero on the tour. Raw distance and the ability to yank a wedge out of the ever shortening tour rough are the keys to winning now. If Haney's swing methodology helped Woods with that, then he deserves kudos.
BTW, that 3rd picture of the guy on the Hooters Tour (the jeans gave him away) is a definte up-and-comer. Impact position indicates both power and control. Get his name, we'll have to keep an eye on him.
Charlie
In one article Haney states that behind every good or great instructor is or are great students.
I think one factor that has been overlooked in Tiger's career is that those imperatives that Tiger has were taught/learned at a very young age, prior to the well recognized golf instructors/coaches we hear about today.
You are right about direction. Recently someone wrote an article about POWER GOLF. It is good for all but a few courses and will most likely continue until something major happerns.
In that first picture of Tiger (of him at the top of his swing) isn't his clubface closed though? This is what I don't get...everyone says the clubface should be aligned to the left arm or w/e to be square...well his isn't, I can see that right there...yet you will still hear that it's "dead square" or w/e.
Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way.
birdie_man,
I believe the club needs to be slightly closed at the top to account for the required amount of clubhead lag at impact
Originally Posted by birdie_man
In that first picture of Tiger (of him at the top of his swing) isn't his clubface closed though? This is what I don't get...everyone says the clubface should be aligned to the left arm or w/e to be square...well his isn't, I can see that right there...yet you will still hear that it's "dead square" or w/e.
Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way.
This is one of the bigger differences with his swing now vs. 2000-2001 (which I agree Brian, was MUCH better)
I should clarify, I wasn't commenting that Tiger's flying wedge alignments were anything new - just that this was an excellent example of them -
The difference IMO is that Tiger can and does 'recover' from a less than ideal backswing/top of swing that he has now - the too flat/arched wrist move I don't care for - when his TEMPO is on, he'll recover, but as we saw at the Masters, when his tempo was off.... fore right!
That said, when he properly uses extensor action and keeps the 'structure' of the wedges in place, he looks as good as ever - much better plane than the last couple years and closer to the 2000-2001 season
Two things to work on Tiger - extensor action and tempo - get those wedges set and KEEP them with extensor action and the tempo issue won't be much of a problem!
Originally Posted by EdZ
Originally Posted by birdie_man
In that first picture of Tiger (of him at the top of his swing) isn't his clubface closed though? This is what I don't get...everyone says the clubface should be aligned to the left arm or w/e to be square...well his isn't, I can see that right there...yet you will still hear that it's "dead square" or w/e.
Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way.
This is one of the bigger differences with his swing now vs. 2000-2001 (which I agree Brian, was MUCH better)
I should clarify, I wasn't commenting that Tiger's flying wedge alignments were anything new - just that this was an excellent example of them -
The difference IMO is that Tiger can and does 'recover' from a less than ideal backswing/top of swing that he has now - the too flat/arched wrist move I don't care for - when his TEMPO is on, he'll recover, but as we saw at the Masters, when his tempo was off.... fore right!
That said, when he properly uses extensor action and keeps the 'structure' of the wedges in place, he looks as good as ever - much better plane than the last couple years and closer to the 2000-2001 season
Two things to work on Tiger - extensor action and tempo - get those wedges set and KEEP them with extensor action and the tempo issue won't be much of a problem!
Yep. Tempo is the call. The rate at which he fires his hips takes him all out of rhythm. Timing and rate are both an issue. I don't know what he is after. I have a recording of one of his tee shots at the Masters. He did a simple bump and turn and sent it 330 yds.
And at least in my game, it's amazing how many problems can be avoided with proper Extensor Action.
I know who it is in the first 2 pictures and he looks pretty good, but how about that third picture? Not sure who he is, but definitely looks like a tour player at impact!
Keith
PS - Trig, would have thought it was a tour player if I didn't see your profile in the Bagger vs. Nukem video.
Originally Posted by krpainter
I know who it is in the first 2 pictures and he looks pretty good, but how about that third picture? Not sure who he is, but definitely looks like a tour player at impact!
Keith
PS - Trig, would have thought it was a tour player if I didn't see your profile in the Bagger vs. Nukem video.
Ok, the cat's out of the bag! It's NOT Tiger!
Originally Posted by Trig
Here's his position at the top at the 2000 British Open. Check out the clubface and the left wrist.
Ya! That one at St. Andrews is perfect. That's what I'm talkin' about!
That's an awesome picture. Why would he ever want to change that???
Originally Posted by birdie_man
Ya! That one at St. Andrews is perfect. That's what I'm talkin' about!
That's an awesome picture. Why would he ever want to change that???
Too steep of a plane angle for his likening...
Flatter and longer is what he is doing today...
He will hit it longer with the new swing. No doutbt about it.
I mainly like the left wrist angle in that photo at St. A's.
Why would he hit it longer now???
BTW I think Martee meant his swing will be longer...as in the swing itself...not his shots.
Originally Posted by birdie_man
I mainly like the left wrist angle in that photo at St. A's.
Why would he hit it longer now???
BTW I think Martee meant his swing will be longer...as in the swing itself...not his shots.
According to Theodore P. Jorgensen: "The Physics of Golf", more wrist cock translates to more clubhead speed.
And ... he seems to have restored the power advantage he had a few years ago.
Yes I meant longer swing.
As for longer distance, the length of the swing is only one of many factors in determining the results.
It will be interesting to see in another six months what evolves in this swing and compare those pictures to a new one.
His face is shut in that picture because that is how he hits a cut....
closed clubface and angled hinge.
Originally Posted by jim_0068
His face is shut in that picture because that is how he hits a cut....
closed clubface and angled hinge.
Interesting comment. Could you explain the logic and what evidence there is that
a. He is using angled hinging (normally a hitter's choice)?
b. That he was hitting a cut shot?
c. Closed aligment in reference to plane or wrists/hands or to ground?
I am asking to get a better understanding, I really can't tell what type of shot or if he is hitting or swinging (actually my guess based on several factors is that he is swinging, not hitting but then we are only looking at one frame of the swing)
Thanks (always interested in gaining a better understanding)
Originally Posted by jim_0068
His face is shut in that picture because that is how he hits a cut....
closed clubface and angled hinge.
Ya man...I dunno...he must be holding it off more and kind of swinging more to right field...that's prolly why he's getting those pushes too.
All I know is if I look like that at the top I have to really swing out to the right with angled hinging or I will hook the hell out of it. I can hit it well like this but I do get straight pushes quite a bit.
Who is this anyway? That forearm is on plane perfectly.
The 2000-2001 swing of Tiger is better than his new swing, why would he take lessons from a guy who had the yips with a driver.
460 cc how can you not keep it some were on the golf course.
Originally Posted by birdie_man
[img]
Who is this anyway? That forearm is on plane perfectly.
That would be Trig tongue firmly in his cheek. What you don't see is the massive clubhead throwaway from his bent left wrist...
Just kidding.
Just kidding. Trig comes down through the ball better than anyone I've seen. He is a consumate tinkerer, but always looks like this coming down.
Bagger
O lol I see I see. Looks pretty good at impact for sure.
Originally Posted by jr33
The 2000-2001 swing of Tiger is better than his new swing, why would he take lessons from a guy who had the yips with a driver.
That could be a concern...or maybe it's
good that he's found a guy who knows where he's coming from. I think Haney cured his yips (it was with that freaky weird swing- but w/e)...I'd think that would be an asset rather than a pitfall.
460 cc how can you not keep it some were on the golf course.
Tiger hits it solid pretty much everytime...he just pushes it like crazy...you can still be unaccurate with a big driver, you just aren't gonna miss the sweetspot. I just think the guy swings too hard...since when should you be lazer accurarate hitting it 350 or w/e?
Lots of swingers use angled hinging.....lots.
Okay Brian, I will bite, what's your point? Is this in reponse to my earlier post asking the question?
When that picture was taken a few people were watching it "at the tournament." Those people are part of bombsquadgolf and said it was a pull cut shot.
Also a pretty decent nike rep/exec (point is someone in the know @ nike) posts occasionally there and said the same thing. When tiger wants to hit the cut he says he "holds on" and tries not to roll it over.
So thats "his version" of the angled hinge. IMO that is what made Duval so consistent when he became #1 in the world...strong grip, good plane, angle hinge and nothing but a nice fade.
Originally Posted by jim_0068
When that picture was taken a few people were watching it "at the tournament." Those people are part of bombsquadgolf and said it was a pull cut shot.
Also a pretty decent nike rep/exec (point is someone in the know @ nike) posts occasionally there and said the same thing. When tiger wants to hit the cut he says he "holds on" and tries not to roll it over.
So thats "his version" of the angled hinge. IMO that is what made Duval so consistent when he became #1 in the world...strong grip, good plane, angle hinge and nothing but a nice fade.
Thanks Jim, I was just wondering how you came to your conclusion looking at one frame (a frame that may be or not be at the top).
The strong grip coupled with a arched wrist with angled hinging sounds that it would be a pull cut. Use Horz hinging and it should be straight since with long clubs a closed face is suggested.
Of course he could just be off plane or already in the downstroke and the arched wrist and strong grip is giving the wrong picture for those who subscribe that the clubface location at the top must be in a certain position.
Thanks again....
Exactly....it wasn't like i was ASSUMING from those pictures. I was going off first hand info from people who actually saw that swing live and the ball flight that occured.
jim
