flat vs steep BS shoulder turn?

On the BS why is it more advantageous (per Alignment Golf video)to make a flat shoulder turn vs a steeper turn like you see in S&T, Foley etc?

just curious...

thanks

Originally Posted by ColtsFan On the BS why is it more advantageous (per Alignment Golf video)to make a flat shoulder turn vs a steeper turn like you see in S&T, Foley etc?

just curious...

thanks

Its a question I have. Isn't it easier to have a centered head with a rotated shoulder? If you use a flat backswing and tend to go "under" it would you be better off with a rotated?

What constitutes flat, are the attached flat or steep, is one flat and one steep?

Toms looks flattish and Glover(?)looks a little more rotated/ steeper. I did find this from OBleft on the subject....

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...+shoulder+turn

Awesome questions guys.

Keep in mind that Rotated can locate a TSP Angle. But generally speaking a steeper turn of the Right Shoulder would, assuming zero shift, require a corresponding unusually high Elbow Plane.........Im using the definition of Elbow Plane as any plane you can get your Right Elbow or Forearm on here as opposed to what Homer sometimes termed the "true" Elbow Plane.

So, if my thinking is correct (which is often a big consideration), assuming zero shift, a Lower TSP angle, one that better matches up with a more common Impact Plane Angle or Elbow Plane would be better no? Match your TSP to your desired impact Plane Angle rather than vice versa assuming zero shift. Or in the case of a shift down to a lower plane for impact, require a more minimal shift to get to that Elbow Plane. Minimal being better theoretically speaking despite the big shifting Jim Furyks of the world.

All of this getting us into the Standard Shoulder Turn world........"flat back and then down plane" with the Right Shoulder.

Thats my take on it anyways. Lynn just puts a long dowel beside his right side representing his desired Plane Angle (zero shift) and then takes his Right Shoulder back to it or as close to it as he can anyways (requiring a shift). Its "flat" but its not necessarily flat to the ground and the associated TSP angle he gets his Hands and Right Shoulder on isnt really all that "flat" looking to the eye.

I dunno. Im calling in a life line.........breaker, breaker Lynn Blake, good buddy come on?

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Keep in mind that Rotated can locate a TSP Angle

What "locates" the TSP, is it the hands, the tip of the right shoulder?

Originally Posted by O.B.Left
zero shift require a corresponding high Elbow Plane

So one locates the TSP off the rotated shoulder plane, zero shifts, how can they get down to a plane lower than the TSP at impact without shifting? Trouble visualizing this.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Match your TSP to your desired impact Plane Angle rather than vice versa

What is the procedure for this, again it makes sense but I just take the club to the top and turn, how does one complete a desired TSP to impact?

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Or in the case of a shift down to a lower plane for impact, require a more minimal shift to get to that Elbow Plane. Minimal being better theoretically speaking despite the big shifting Jim Furyks of the world.

Does this mean if you are going to use an elbow plane impact ideally you are as close to a elbow plane backswing, flatter that is, like Hogan?

Thanks just trying to understand. I swing flat back and under the plane on the downswing so I am constantly in search of something to fix this.

Originally Posted by gmbtempe Thanks just trying to understand. I swing flat back and under the plane on the downswing so I am constantly in search of something to fix this.

I think if you are swinging on the TSP vs elbow plane, with a zero shift (still shifting from elbow to TSP but its a small shift) you dont have to worry about shifting back down to the elbow plane. Think of Phil or Jack, if you look at where the shaft is half way down, its disecting their upper arm, its not lined up to the rt forearm like Hogan, Sergio,Trevino (DTL view)

but I digress...still trying to figure out the flat vs rotaed shoulder turn, and our friend OB is doing his best to help see the benefit of ...thanks OB!

Where's Kevin? I think he has been moving to more of steeper shoulder turn BS w/ good results

Originally Posted by gmbtempe What "locates" the TSP, is it the hands, the tip of the right shoulder?

A plane angle running from the Base Line through the Right Shoulder when its Turned at Top when viewed from down the line. In other words the Right Shoulder lays on the same Inclined Plane Angle as the butt of the club (or the Hands or the #3 pp specifically). The move from Top for most shots, full shots anyways is a move of the Pivot , ground up, with no independent Arm movement. No hitting from the top like you would for a Full Sweep Release say where there is no Delay of Release. The period of Shoulder Acceleration. See the definition of Start Down.....dont have my book with me but its about the Right Shoulder.

. So one locates the TSP off the rotated shoulder plane, zero shifts, how can they get down to a plane lower than the TSP at impact without shifting? Trouble visualizing this.

You cant shift and still be zero shift.

I think the problem is that when I say Elbow Plane you instinctively think about a low Elbow Plane angle.........imagine there being a range of planes from low to fairly high that you could get your Right Forearm and shaft on. Imagine a toe down ,heal up in the air, high hands versions of the Elbow Plane. Using this definition of Elbow Plane, one of these " high" Elbow Planes is about the only way you can achieve zero shift while using a TSP angle at top....well you gotta use a "low" TSP to pull it off too actually. HENCE THE FLAT BACK move of the Right Shoulder in Startup.......I believe, might be wrong.

Definitions again. Change them and the meaning changes. Got to make sure people are using the same ones or the conversation goes wacky. Homer changed his definition of Elbow Plane and perhaps his opinion about it too. By some definitions, perhaps the common ones, zero shift along a single TSP and Elbow Plane Angle combo is not possible physically. Now if you bring a higher Elbow Plane into the picture .....it can be done.

What is the procedure for this, again it makes sense but I just take the club to the top and turn, how does one complete a desired TSP to impact?

The Right Shoulder only takes the Hands to the selected Release Point not all the way down plane and through the ball......which would be no Release , well of #4 angle anyways. Its pretty hard to get the Right Shoulder to go that far down plane and theres no need for it to do so, I dont believe as the Arms can , should accelerate away from the Shoulders. The Hands then continue the journey down plane while the right shoulder moves a little higher commonly.


The procedure would be to take your Hands Back, In and UP to your desired Plane Angle at Top and assuming its a TSP then you could allow your Pivot to pull your Right Shoulder down the Inclined Plane and know that it will also be taking the Hands , the #3 pp the entire sweetspot plane down plane too.....in Startdown ....only. The other procedure is the employment of a Shoulder Turn Throw whereby you actively throw your Right Shoulder at the the Plane Line in Startdown.

Startdown Waggles cover this move nicely. With or without the Shoulder Throw Release Trigger (which by the way can be used in combination with a Right Arm Throw (Hitting) or Left Wrist Throw (Swinging) or most other Throws for that matter.....except the Hands Throw maybe which is incompatible as you cant Delay Release and Full Sweep Release at the same time).

Does this mean if you are going to use an elbow plane impact ideally you are as close to a elbow plane backswing, flatter that is, like Hogan?

In theory yes but even Hogan double shifted Id say , although his Plane didnt shift that much in terms of degrees. His elbow plane and his TSP were pretty close together. Making his shifts less dangerous if plane shifting is hazardous as Homer suggested. Brian Gay is the same way to my mind, if he shifts its a baby one or ones.

Homer liked zero shift. It goes nicely with non manipulated , Pivot based strokes with CF doing its thing. But before you think he was all about shaft planes only , he did define Clubhead only planes with zero shift and shifts ........And is on record as saying that he would not change an accomplished player from multiple shifts to zero necessarily. I dont think he'd change Furyk shifts , personally. You wouldnt start a new golfer out that way but there's nothing wrong with it mechanically ......it gets the job done nicely, when its working. He wasnt "shaft plane or die" as some have characterized him. The Angle of Approach for instance is non planar in a shaft sense, its a clubhead only plane of motion.

Thanks just trying to understand. I swing flat back and under the plane on the downswing so I am constantly in search of something to fix this.

Do you mean off plane or on plane but under Hogans sheet of glass?


Uh maybe I made this post a whole lot more complicated than it needed to be? And we havent even talked Rotated much or how you cant tilt the axis and still be Rotated ......


TSP's , Standard Shoulder Turn..........pure genius. I think, assuming I understand 'em.

digesting....so if the BS shoulder turn were to be steeper/rotated it would require that you come back down that same steeper TSP? Maybe that would invite more of a round house/ OTT move?

Lets see if Yoda's in the house