Yoda,
1) whats the difference between a turn/roll of the left wrist and a swivel?
I know that hitters have a gradual turn/roll and swingers swivel. So am I right in saying that the difference is in how sudden you turn/roll it? i.e. a swivel is a more sudden turn/roll, whereas a hitters turn/roll is just a gradual one.
2) is the term true rotation synonymous with swivel, i.e. they can be used interchangeably?
3) I am a swinger, and Im not sure how quickly I should turn my wrists on the backstroke. For example, when I reach the first parallel on the backstroke, should the clubface be square, or slightly closed?
4) When you talk about turning the wrists, is this achieved only by turning the wrist itself, or does it refer to the turning of the whole of the forearm (or both?)? I hope Im not getting confused with fanning, which is just a clapping motion and has nothing to do with turning (?)
5) Question on flying wedges. I know that the right wrist should always be level (no vertical plane movement) and is only allowed to bend (horizontal plane movement). But looking at photos of numerous pros at impact, their right wrist seems to be uncocked. Shouldnt it be level?
In the meantime before Yoda answers:
1- a swivel is like a safety value after impact for a swinger to finish the horizontal hinging action and put the club back on plane into the finish. Hitters swivel action is later but not slower in preforming. I feel a hitter who is driving the right arm with #1pp doesnt perform the same swivel as a swinger but achieves the same result as the hand action puts the club back on plane into the finish. For a Swinger, without a swivel, the Horizontal hinge action would stop and the clubhead thrown away, the right wrist would flip.
2- Im not sure what you mean by true rotation but there are NO synonymous terms in the TGM language. Swivel is swivel and means only swivel and nothing else does. Hahah. It is the hidden value of TGM.
3- All wrist and hand actions are loading actions and can perform at anytime. Generally sweep (throughout) and snap (late) loading are the most common. What you do not want to do is start putting the body and club in positions. Alignments are not positions. The swing is fluid not fixed.
4- never give it much thought.
Fanning is like unclapping- movement from the center- fanning, unclapping outward. Since there are not unnatural movements in the machine- the forearms must move somewhat. The point isnt moving or turning the forearm but the hand/wrist.
5- The right wrist only bends- that is the horizontal plane movement and is never called cocking Only the left wrist cocks. The pro at impact may or may not have a bend in the right wrist, but in each case it is level as long as it is still a horizontal movement. This is not a flip which is total breakdown.
A straightening of the right unbent wrist occurs to some degree depending on the stroke. A flat right wrist occurs twice in a stroke, at address and once again after impact before re-bending to the finish to some like Ben Doyle, while others say it should remain bent all the time. Mine flattens some on long irons and woods and stays bent with short irons and pitches. Level is the key.
Thanks Matt, the link was helpful.
The pro at impact may or may not have a bend in the right wrist, but in each case it is level as long as it is still a horizontal movement.
I was referring to the forbidden vertical motion (i.e. cocking and uncocking of right wrist). Take a look at the photo on the left of this link:
http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/...nger_coteg.jpg
To me, the the right wrist seems to be slightly uncocked. It doesn't look level. If you draw a straght line from elbow point to middle of wrist, and another line wrist to fingers, you would find that they are at an angle. If they were to be level, then there should be no divergence between these two lines. Maybe it's a bad camera angle?
Another point in case someone brings this up: one can argue that because the right forearm and the club does indeed form a straight line in the photo, the right wrist must be level. But I think this is not true since the club is held in the hands at an angle, so in order to get the club and right forearm in one line, the right wrist should be uncocked.
One point that we learned in "Secrets class" last year is that a level wrist is measured from the base of the thumb, the area above the fat meaty part of the hand, straight back to the wrist. This will make the wrist look uncocked as it will have the fingers pointed down.
I will agree that the fingers in the cocked picture are level and the fingers in the level picture angle downward but it is not the hand or fingers that must be level but it is the wrist that must stay level.
Originally Posted by 6bmike
One point that we learned in "Secrets class" last year is that a level wrist is measured from the base of the thumb, the area above the fat meaty part of the hand, straight back to the wrist. This will make the wrist look uncocked as it will have the fingers pointed down.
I will agree that the fingers in the cocked picture are level and the fingers in the level picture angle downward but it is not the hand or fingers that must be level but it is the wrist that must stay level.
B,
The Level Pic looks Uncocked to me, at least for me. I can't get my wrist to uncock any more than that position in the pic.
Thoughts?
Thanks man!
R
Imagine a club in the Level hand- that might help.
Re-read 4-B-0/1/2/3
4-B-3 UNCOCKED
...."The wrist is UNCOCKED at any time it is moving away from any COCKED condition."
Now I know what level is. However, I am unable to keep my right wrist in the newly defined position on the backswing. My right wrist goes to a technically cocked position according to the above photos, however visually it looks level. It's impossible to not cock my right wrist unless I eliminate any left wrist cock.
Originally Posted by DDL
Now I know what level is. However, I am unable to keep my right wrist in the newly defined position on the backswing. My right wrist goes to a technically cocked position according to the above photos, however visually it looks level. It's impossible to not cock my right wrist unless I eliminate any left wrist cock.
The left wrist is cocked by the motion of the right elbow, not the right wrist. That is how you can maintain no wrist cock in the right, but have a cocked left wrist.
Check that you are maintaining extensor action. It is likey that if you are cocking the right wrist, you probably are not.
Is it possible that the vast majority of Tour players double cock their wrists? In the slo mo sequences, I don't detect a TGM defined level right wrist either at address or in the BS,except DiMarco for one
Originally Posted by DDL
Is it possible that the vast majority of Tour players double cock their wrists? In the slo mo sequences, I don't detect a TGM defined level right wrist either at address or in the BS,except DiMarco for one
Do not be misled by angle issues which makes a right wrist BEND seem like a right wrist COCK.
Unless the right wrist is viewed perpendicular to the plane of right wrist BEND, then the bend will seem like a cock. So at the top of the backswing, you have to be behind and underneath the player in order to get a proper view, an angle you don't normally see in photos.
These two pictures show two
identical wrist alignments, at two
different angles.
Originally Posted by tongzilla
Originally Posted by DDL
Is it possible that the vast majority of Tour players double cock their wrists? In the slo mo sequences, I don't detect a TGM defined level right wrist either at address or in the BS,except DiMarco for one
Do not be misled by angle issues which makes a right wrist BEND seem like a right wrist COCK.
Unless the right wrist is viewed perpendicular to the plane of right wrist BEND, then the bend will seem like a cock. So at the top of the backswing, you have to be behind and underneath the player in order to get a proper view, an angle you don't normally see in photos.
These two pictures show two identical wrist alignments, at two different angles.
NOW THOSE ARE SOME FANTASTIC PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS POST IS STRONG LIKE A GARLIC TIC-TAC!!!!!!! A MUST SEE, MUST UNDERSTAND, MUST EXECUTE ALIGNMENT!!!!
AWSOME!!!!
How about a little before and after? . . . I think people would benefit from seeing Double-Cocked vs. Level. To me this is one of the most overlooked and misunderstood points in The Golfing Machine.
I had no clue about the importance of the Wedges the Right Forearm Flying Wedge particularly. Read it in the book about 10 times and was like, "uh ok? What the heck is that all about." Thanks to the good Dr. Collards the fog was lifted. And if you ain't got your right wrist Level, then you ain't got no Wedge.
Many thanks for posting! One for the fridge door and the archives.
Regards,
Bucket
P.S. What is that X thing on your wrist? Is you witda crips or da bloods?
P.S. What is that X thing on your wrist? Is you witda crips or da bloods?
Per 1-L, "It is soon apparant that the body can duplicate a machine...Hands become adjustable clamps with two-way power actuators- for Vertical and Rotational manupulation."
(please view above with a dry sense of humour)
yoda et al,
can anyone show pics or diagrams fo the finish swivel for both hitters and swingers? it would help visual learners to see these wrist positions.
thanks,
jimmy
Originally Posted by jimmydean
yoda et al,
can anyone show pics or diagrams fo the finish swivel for both hitters and swingers? it would help visual learners to see these wrist positions.
thanks,
jimmy
It's just the rolling of the left wrist. It allows the club to overtake the hands while still being on plane. Remember that the only swivel hitters do is at the finish, whereas swingers have a startup swivel and a release swivel (as well as a finish swivel). Finish swivel is same for both.
You can find these pics everywhere! e.g.
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/79626/1/2770246
and look at the relevant sequence.
For me, the finish swivel happens automatically, not something I try to manually control. As long as my thrust continues
downplane and on plane all the way to follow through everything after that kind of happens by itself. No quitting.
I'm sure Yoda can give a more authoritative answer.
There has been much discussed about all this swiveling stuff. The finish swivel is simply rolling your left wrist back up on plane after followthrough - that's it. If you're not 'chicken-winging' it, you're probably doing it more or less correct right now and need not worry about it.
Neither pics show a right forearm flying wedge. For me, its very difficult to maintain the flying wedge and a level right wrist on the BS. UnlessI do a twistaway, in which case , I am not fully turning the wrist onplane.
Excellent pics. However, I am still under the impression the Tour players hold the club more in their right fingers instead of the palm.
Originally Posted by DDL
Neither pics show a right forearm flying wedge. For me, its very difficult to maintain the flying wedge and a level right wrist on the BS. UnlessI do a twistaway, in which case , I am not fully turning the wrist onplane.
Excellent pics. However, I am still under the impression the Tour players hold the club more in their right fingers instead of the palm.
D,
Lose the club for a while. Start with an open hand and assume Level Bent. Cock your right ARM up by bending your elbow. Then do the same thing with a closed fist. Once you got that. Get a 48 inch dowel from the hardware store. Do a search on dowels on this site and in the archives. The best way to learn to keep the shaft in the plane of the right forearm is to start on a horizontal plane. Work there some and then drop it down on the inclined plane. The feeling will be the same and much different.
Yes. The tour players hold the club more in the fingers than the CUP of the right hand. But if you get the grip in the cup of your hand it will be much easier to get the shaft on plane with your right FOREARM. The tour guys don't start there, but the do infact get there. But why not make it easier on yourself and start there.
Good luck man!
Bucket
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
Originally Posted by DDL
Neither pics show a right forearm flying wedge. For me, its very difficult to maintain the flying wedge and a level right wrist on the BS. UnlessI do a twistaway, in which case , I am not fully turning the wrist onplane.
Excellent pics. However, I am still under the impression the Tour players hold the club more in their right fingers instead of the palm.
D,
Lose the club for a while. Start with an open hand and assume Level Bent. Cock your right ARM up by bending your elbow. Then do the same thing with a closed fist. Once you got that. Get a 48 inch dowel from the hardware store. Do a search on dowels on this site and in the archives. The best way to learn to keep the shaft in the plane of the right forearm is to start on a horizontal plane. Work there some and then drop it down on the inclined plane. The feeling will be the same and much different.
Yes. The tour players hold the club more in the fingers than the CUP of the right hand. But if you get the grip in the cup of your hand it will be much easier to get the shaft on plane with your right FOREARM. The tour guys don't start there, but the do infact get there. But why not make it easier on yourself and start there.
Good luck man!
Bucket
Excelllent stuff!. Only thing i have available now is a backscratcher
Originally Posted by DDL
Excelllent stuff!. Only thing i have available now is a backscratcher
If the things got a shaft you can use it! I dork out at the office working on my Wedges with a yard stick. Heck, I've even worked with a toothbrush!
