Lag Pressure, can it be sustained?

Id say No, not past the point where the club is not accelerating anyways. But the attempt or the intention to sustain it as long as you can is a good one. A very good one assuming you want to hit the ball with an accelerating clubhead as opposed to a decelerating one.


There's a lot of different definitions of lag out there but I'd like to confine this conversation to Homer's Lag, Lag Pressure. Lag PRESSURE as sensed in the Hands, the #3 pp (rotated or not).

Here's my line of thinking please tell me if you think Ive got Homer wrong. It aint hard to do.

Lag Pressure is a product of Acceleration. The rate of acceleration to be precise. To maintain a constant amount of Lag Pressure you need to maintain a constant rate of acceleration. (which is one difficult task) Any slowing in the rate , though you may still be accelerating will see a corresponding drop off in the amount of Lag Pressure in terms of psi. (Lag pressure as defined is not measurable in terms of degrees or inches).

O.K? Stick with me here. Homer in the Law Flail 2-K noted how when the (swingle) clubhead passes the (handle) hands that the clubhead is subject to what he termed "Angular Deceleration". To me implying that Lag Pressure is fully diminished by this point.

Further more I believe the Endless Belt analogy is a model to show the mechanical advantage of the small pulley wheel for a given hand speed only. I dont believe Homer was suggesting there was an advantage to having a constant hand speed!!! In fact a constant hand speed would to my mind suggest a lag pressure of zero. This may be contrary to some well intentioned A.I.s teachings.......no ill will intended. I just think they got Homer slightly wrong. Either they did or I did......

Any thoughts on this guys? Its time to get Homers definitions straight however painful it may be to the memory of some pioneers. There's some guys dressed up in lab coats , calling themselves "scientists" who are looking for some misinterpretations to rebut. Most of them are of their own making but lets clear up our own.

Homer Kelley's 3 Imperatives changed my ideas on teaching and playing. They work for me and my students. The "scientists" are trying to show us that maintaining the angles is not needed. No kidding. That's exactly why Lynn Blake, years ago, told us "the secret to golf is not a position, it's a pressure.". Good luck to those who teach others to throw that away.

Kevin

Why would you say that you can't sustain lag pressure?

Originally Posted by Mike O Why would you say that you can't sustain lag pressure?

You can but only for so long. I edited my post above for clarity. I think you can sustain lag pressure , should attempt to sustain lag pressure as long as is possible. Sustain a constant amount of lag pressure via a steady rate of acceleration. But once the clubheads rate of acceleration declines even though you may be still accelerating Lag Pressure is fading away and once the club passes the hands , settles into angular deceleration Lag Pressure is all gone. Similar to how you dont feel pushed back into an airplanes seat when the plane reaches full speed. No acceleration no lag pressure. You want to accelerate gradually , at a steady rate , not start off at a rate you cant maintain (over acceleration the menace that stalks all lag and drag). It'll feel heavy.

The intention to sustain it past impact , past low point all the way to Both Arms Straight is a good one though.....

Here's something else to consider. Can you have too much lag? If talking Lag Pressure as a product of acceleration : Yes. You dont want to hit a three foot put with 40 yards worth of Lag Pressure do you.

See 2-M-2 POWER REGULATION. Clubhead Lag Pressure Point pressure (6-C) is the Power Regulator. It meters out Power by sensing Clubhead Acceleration Rate and Direction.

Im no scientist though.......could be wrong again.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Lag Pressure is a product of Acceleration. The rate of acceleration to be precise.

I dont believe Homer was suggesting there was an advantage to having a constant hand speed!!! In fact a constant hand speed would to my mind suggest a lag pressure of zero.

Don't forget Mass in your Lag Pressure equation.

That makes sense thanks Mike. So for a constant
hand speed the Lag Pressure sensed would be a product of clubhead mass only ( as the contribution from acceleration would be zeroed).

Is that what you mean?

No

I'm saying the equation that LP=A isn't correct. LP=MA is a much better equation. Essentially the greater the force the greater the lag pressure. Let's say you go out in front of your house in the street and accelerate (push) a feather 1mph, then to 2mph and then to 5 mph - not much lag pressure. Now, accelerate a car in neutral by pushing on the fender 1mph, 2mph, 5 mph - probably alot of lag pressure there. Acceleration was the same - the difference was the mass you were accelerating.

One example of that concept in a different perspective somewhere in the book 10-19? (don't have a book anymore), he comments for short shots with little to no hand motion - to add mass via extensor action for better lag pressure.

Therefore, if you had constant handspeed but were increasing angular mass via arm and/or lever assembly extension - you could still have lag pressure. Finally and in addition to that thought - we are talking about acceleration of the clubshaft at the grip end, where the hands attach. We're not talking about ONLY the acceleration of the hands through space, that has the ability to create lag pressure. Some of the wrist motions/muscles can add force and therefore lag pressure on top of whatever hand acceleration one might have or not have.

Thrust anyone? The accelerated mass will cause a force of equal magnitude but opposite direction. [Clubhead Inertia] sensed and directed by the #3 PP.

6-C-2-A THE ESSENCE of Clubhead Lag technique is that it is always both Aiming AND Thrust. Passive - it is primarily Aiming the Lag Pressure. Active - it is the primarily Thrusting the Lag Pressure Point. The Orbiting Clubhead does not seek out the Ball - it seeks out the Delivery Line. But never directly - only via the Right Forearm and the #3 Pressure Point per 2-F, 5-0 and 7-3. It is guided along that Line to the Both Arms Straight configuration by the straight line thrust of the #3 Pressure Point toward the Angle of Approach quadrant of the Ball - or Aiming Point - per 1-F, 1-L-9/10, 2-J-3 and 6-E-2.

The Clubshaft is stressed by the weight of the Clubhead resisting a change in its direction or velocity - which is Acceleration. Acceleration bends the Clubshaft during Radial Acceleration (10-19-A). Change of direction bends it during Longitudinal Acceleration (10-19-C) which may be, or just include, the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point in addition to its main function of Acceleration Control. From Putter to Driver, the Clubhead Lag technique is indispensable.

If the Pressure Point pressure that produced the initial Clubshaft flex is maintained it will maintain the flex also. So the pressure will be a steady smooth Thrust from the entire Power Package Assembly, and will produce a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly. If the Pivot moves the Right Shoulder at the same speed as the Power Package - or Primary Lever Assembly - the Accumulators will not be Released by this action until the Right Elbow can straighten. Even then the Clubhead Lag is still maintained - it has NO Release Point. Establish a “normal” Right Wrist Bend for Release - either frozen at some point, or moving from Maximum to Minimum Bend as the Ball Location is moved away from Low Point and/or the Basic Stroke changes the Elbow location (10-3) - because the Right Wrist Bend, along with Ball Location and Plane Angle determine the precise RIGHT FOREARM ANGLE OF APPROACH (7-3).

Bold by Daryl

The Downstroke Acceleration Sequence (Power Package) produces a "constant Rate of Acceleration" of the Primary Lever although the Pivot reaches its maximum speed early in the Downstroke.

Hey did you guys ever have your date night?

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Hey did you guys ever have your date night?

Yes. Mike is a great date. He's severely addicted to TGM.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Id say No, not past the point where the club is not accelerating anyways. But the attempt or the intention to sustain it as long as you can is a good one. A very good one assuming you want to hit the ball with an accelerating clubhead as opposed to a decelerating one.


Any thoughts on this guys?

The clubhead reaches max velo very shortly after the onset of #2 release. Even in the very best swings the clubhead is slowing down at impact. As far as sustaining lag pressure, the best you can do is for PP #3 to continue to receive pivot lag pressure as long as possible. Turn/drive hard to your anatomical limits. No quitting!

I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute, just my "feels." I sure am enjoying all of the excellent posts and ideas from everyone else...

Kevin

Step on the Gas and you'll be pressed against the seat, but once you reach a constant speed you'll lose the pressure. The pressure you felt in the beginning will exist as long as you can maintain a "constant rate of acceleration".

With G.O.L.F., (Downstroke Acceleration Sequence), once our pivot accelerates the right shoulder to it's max speed the Hands begin to accelerate.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Id say No, not past the point where the club is not accelerating anyways. But the attempt or the intention to sustain it as long as you can is a good one. A very good one assuming you want to hit the ball with an accelerating clubhead as opposed to a decelerating one.


There's a lot of different definitions of lag out there but I'd like to confine this conversation to Homer's Lag, Lag Pressure. Lag PRESSURE as sensed in the Hands, the #3 pp (rotated or not).

Here's my line of thinking please tell me if you think Ive got Homer wrong. It aint hard to do.

Lag Pressure is a product of Acceleration. The rate of acceleration to be precise. To maintain a constant amount of Lag Pressure you need to maintain a constant rate of acceleration. (which is one difficult task) Any slowing in the rate , though you may still be accelerating will see a corresponding drop off in the amount of Lag Pressure in terms of psi. (Lag pressure as defined is not measurable in terms of degrees or inches).

O.K? Stick with me here. Homer in the Law Flail 2-K noted how when the (swingle) clubhead passes the (handle) hands that the clubhead is subject to what he termed "Angular Deceleration". To me implying that Lag Pressure is fully diminished by this point.

Further more I believe the Endless Belt analogy is a model to show the mechanical advantage of the small pulley wheel for a given hand speed only. I dont believe Homer was suggesting there was an advantage to having a constant hand speed!!! In fact a constant hand speed would to my mind suggest a lag pressure of zero. This may be contrary to some well intentioned A.I.s teachings.......no ill will intended. I just think they got Homer slightly wrong. Either they did or I did......

Any thoughts on this guys? Its time to get Homers definitions straight however painful it may be to the memory of some pioneers. There's some guys dressed up in lab coats , calling themselves "scientists" who are looking for some misinterpretations to rebut. Most of them are of their own making but lets clear up our own.

First of all I do not believe lag pressure is measurable by any means other than the individuals own range of sensations, I don't recall a lag pressure formula in 2k...

As far as homer advising constant hand speed over hand speed that is erratic or maybe not erratic but slightly changing either way the goal is the uncompensated stroke and a constant hand speed surely works toward that goal of efficiency in more than a few ways, I would say he most certainly would say it is an advantage.

I do not understand why you would think constant hand speed means zero lag pressure, if you drag a mop across the floor while maintaining a constant hand speed do you not feel lag pressure?

The identity of lag pressure is that it is a pressure sensed that is all.

Let's remember in all this too that not all use number three pp, homer advised this but it is not mandatory, also remember that there are x variations as is the nature of the human vs. The programmed machine.

No quitting sure, but push to anatomical limits? Homer said it was Not advised to run your machine to it's limit.

I think you have homer wrong on this one, I don't think he is saying that you should be constantly trying to speed up in order to maintain a pressure, the contrary actually, he wants you to maintain a constant hand speed and utilize the surface speed increase effect of the pulley portion and CHOOSE a level of sensation, an amount of lag pressure based on the necessities of the shot at hand.

Originally Posted by whip First of all I do not believe lag pressure is measurable by any means other than the individuals own range of sensations, I don't recall a lag pressure formula in 2k...

As far as homer advising constant hand speed over hand speed that is erratic or maybe not erratic but slightly changing either way the goal is the uncompensated stroke and a constant hand speed surely works toward that goal of efficiency in more than a few ways, I would say he most certainly would say it is an advantage.

I do not understand why you would think constant hand speed means zero lag pressure, if you drag a mop across the floor while maintaining a constant hand speed do you not feel lag pressure? I do not need to accelerate the mop faster and faster to maintain the pressure.

The identity of lag pressure is that it is a pressure sensed that is all.

Let's remember in all this too that not all use number three pp, homer advised this but it is not mandatory, also remember that there are x variations as is the nature of the human vs. The programmed machine.

No quitting sure, but push to anatomical limits? Homer said it was Not advised to run your machine to it's limit. Also I do not believe this statement that the only way to sustain the lag is through turning hard with pivot lag during release or that it must be via Some other thrusting or extension, why is it being suggested that lag pressure cannot be sustained by simply sustaining the pressure from wherever you sense it?

I think you have homer wrong on this one, I don't think he is saying that you should be constantly trying to speed up in order to maintain a pressure, the contrary actually, he wants you to maintain a constant hand speed and utilize the surface speed increase effect of the pulley portion and CHOOSE a level of sensation, an amount of lag pressure based on the necessities of the shot at hand.

Yes agreed, I think I was wrong on the zero lag pressure for a constant hand speed thing in a practical sense as was pointed out. The mop is heavy. But Homer is pretty clear about Lag Pressure being related to if not solely produced by the Rate of Acceleration. See 6-C-0 or 2-M-2 #1. Where Homer says........ "The Acceleration Rate (Lag Pressure 7-11)".

All of which to my mind suggesting that the constant hand speed thing of the Endless Belt analogy is not a recommendation that we should literally swing with a constant hand speed. Respectfully. Its just a factor held constant in a model designed to show the advantage of the smaller pulley wheel. Now the thought or intention to try to swing at a constant hand speed if it prevents over acceleration .... "the menace that stalks all lag and drag" may be beneficial. But I suspect you're still accelerating in reality. Maintaining a Constant Rate if thats possible would have a corresponding constant amount of lag pressure but you would have to start down at a speed which will allow you to build (at a Rate) you can maintain. The establishment of a Rate which is not maintainable being the definition of Over Acceleration to my mind.

The Hands at the end of our Arms , levers must accelerate. How could they go from a full stop to a constant speed to a full stop?

Outside of the endless belt does Homer ever mention (let alone recommend) a constant hand speed in the book for full power shots? Less than full power you can have a constant hand speed if you need it but your Lag Pressure will show a corresponding drop off....as it should.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left Yes agreed, I think I was wrong on the zero lag pressure for a constant hand speed in a practical sense as Mike O. pointed out. The mop is heavy. But Homer is pretty clear about Lag Pressure being related to if not solely produced by the Rate of Acceleration. See 6-C-0 or 2-M-2 #1. Where Homer says "The Acceleration Rate (Lag Pressure 7-11).

Which to my mind suggests that the constant hand speed thing of the Endless Belt analogy is not a suggestion we should literally swing with a constant hand speed. Respectfully. Its just an factor held constant in a model to show the advantage of the smaller pulley wheel. Now the thought to try to swing at a constant hand speed if it prevents over acceleration .... "the menace that stalks all lag and drag" may seem to be beneficial. Maintaining a Constant Rate if thats possible would have a corresponding constant amount of lag pressure but you would have to start down very slowly to allow yourself to build at a Rate you can maintain.

The Hands at the end of our Arms , levers must accelerate. How could they go from a full stop to a constant speed to a full stop?

Outside of the endless belt does Homer ever mention (let alone recommend) a constant hand speed in the book for full power shots?

He only mentions it for "less than full power shots..." I can find nowhere that he recommends it for full power in the book, but im trying to understand the advantages of the alternative. lag pressure is varied by changing the acceleration rate he says, but he also says lag pressure is club head feel which may change based on end or top position and where the club head is in relation to the p.p.?. Ok I think I'm sort of understanding what's going on here maybe not, he is suggesting to use a constant hand speed with heavy extensor for less than full power shots, I guess I was taking to mean constant hand speed for full power shots during the downstroke and release not necessarily a constant speed throughout the entire stroke. What would be the advantage of a lag pressure that varies Or a hand speed that varies? I myself am now confused

Originally Posted by whip What would be the advantage of a lag pressure that varies Or a hand speed that varies? I myself am now confused

Lag Pressure may be fleeting but the attempt to sustain it, as Homer defined it , is the attempt to keep accelerating the hands. Thats got to be a good thing in terms of the application of force . Not sure what the equation would be ....somebody around here probably does. I just know that the lag pressure procedure or technique works from putting to driving.....maybe especially in putting and chipping for me anyways.

Why would it not be possible to maintain a constant rate? You can more than attempt to sustain lag pressure or a constant hand speed you can achieve both.