primary lever length at impact

ive been thinking about the effect of primary lever length at impact, my opinion is that for a swinger maximum power at impact would be the clubshaft and left arm In-line, the butt of the club pointing exactly at the left shoulder. Vs for a hitter this would be less important, more dependent on the thrust against the shaft and the left arm and club shaft being directly in line would be less important. so say at impact one swinger has the left arm and clubshaft in-line exactly vs a player who has the shaft leaning forward outside the left shoulder, who is utilizing the primary lever better? I would think that if it were inline the lever would be longest, but really the length of the left arm and clubshaft are maintained. any thoughts on this? of course this is more tour players concern as most golfers have trouble getting the flat left wrist at all

[attachment unavailable]

I don't think so. The farther ahead the hands are at impact, the later the release, and so more head speed, because the max speed is attained shortly after release point and then starts slowing.

I don't have my book with me but I don't think that's quite right my understanding is that once the club starts releasing it reaches maximum speed and maintains that speed trough the interval it does not pick up speed or slow down unless u slow it down by manipulating it.

Originally Posted by whip I don't have my book with me but I don't think that's quite right my understanding is that once the club starts releasing it reaches maximum speed and maintains that speed trough the interval it does not pick up speed or slow down unless u slow it down by manipulating it.

If that were true, you could just uncock at the very top and wait for the constant maximum speed clubhead to get to the ball.

Bucket .... Where are you good buddy? Give us some "encountering the pulley wheel" stuff Man. Shaft lean and delofting vs max radius.

Who cares how far a guy can hit a mid iron via shaft lean , delofting? What the heck kind of gap control has he got? And how far can he hit a long iron? If its about the same he has a real problem.

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe If that were true, you could just uncock at the very top and wait for the constant maximum speed clubhead to get to the ball.

no that would just mean the velocity would be less, the sooner you uncock the less velocity per the endless belt. It doesnt change that the given clubhead speed is maintained however early or late it's released. so to me this would say that it it would make a miniscule difference based on the loft of the face and the distance it achieves because of it, like what ob says

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe I don't think so. The farther ahead the hands are at impact, the later the release, and so more head speed, because the max speed is attained shortly after release point and then starts slowing.

I question "more head speed" above , respectfully. More "hand speed" maybe .

The shot may go farther when struck in the above manner for mid to low irons due to delofting. Radius and loft are the factors in distance .... the delofting stops working as you get into into the longer, less lofted clubs.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left I question "more head speed" above , respectfully. More "hand speed" maybe .

The shot may go farther when struck in the above manner for mid to low irons due to delofting. Radius and loft are the factors in distance .... the delofting stops working as you get into into the longer, less lofted clubs.

I'm interested since I'm hitting the ball well now. If I fire my arms to "Both Arms Straight" and get them farther ahead of the ball, shouldn't I enjoy greater distance given a closer right shoulder? But JB says he Swings so my theory is not settled.

ICT

Originally Posted by innercityteacher I'm interested since I'm hitting the ball well now. If I fire my arms to "Both Arms Straight" and get them farther ahead of the ball, shouldn't I enjoy greater distance given a closer right shoulder? But JB says he Swings so my theory is not settled.

ICT

That sounds like 4-barrel Hitting - drive the right shoulder partially downplane and then fire the right triceps to uncock the left wrist before CF starts uncocking it. If you fire too late, you'd be a switter, and run outa town like a mangy dog.

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe That sounds like 4-barrel Hitting - drive the right shoulder partially downplane and then fire the right triceps to uncock the left wrist before CF starts uncocking it. If you fire too late, you'd be a switter, and run outa town like a mangy dog.

I was going to buy a new driver at least but I cannot think of why I should put the Adam Red Line 9.5 with the senior shaft away.

I hit 13/13 drives in Regulation and the avg. was almost 240 yards. Would a "hotter" driver help?

8 GIR, 33 puts - 3 birdies. The Paul Runion putting and putting my chips had me all over the pin so that there was only two 3 putts on "14" stint greens. 5-one putt greens = 2 close chips for gimmies of less than a foot and two 8 footers= and one 40 foot bomb!

My real problem was not believing how solid the Hitting line is so I would fail to take dead aim mostly until the back and then I started pin-hunting. My last 3 nines were 40, 39 and 38.

Impact Fix +RFT + Right shoulder drive to right triceps + Runion techniques = 5 over par! I hit two holes with longish putts that lipped out. Next time-dead aim to the middle of all greens!

ICT

Originally Posted by O.B.Left I question "more head speed" above , respectfully. More "hand speed" maybe .

Even if it is true that a sweep releaser's max head speed is sustained to impact through the free-wheeling stage of uncocking(which I don't believe), a snap release increases the uncocking speed by the momentum imparted to the club as the hands hit the end of their straight line effort path - the "hard" release, and therefore has a higher max head speed. This is true kinetic chain snapping, and isn't available to the sweep releaser.

As for hand speed, in the TSP Swing, the hands should only move as fast as they are driven downplane by the right shoulder to release point. The hands should get ahead because of the pivot and a late release, not by hand/arm effort, which is steering.

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe Even if it is true that a sweep releaser's max head speed is sustained to impact through the free-wheeling stage of uncocking(which I don't believe), a snap release increases the uncocking speed by the momentum imparted to the club as the hands hit the end of their straight line effort path - the "hard" release, and therefore has a higher max head speed. This is true kinetic chain snapping, and isn't available to the sweep releaser.

As for hand speed, in the TSP Swing, the hands should only move as fast as they are driven downplane by the right shoulder to release point. The hands should get ahead because of the pivot and a late release, not by hand/arm effort, which is steering.

the sweep releaser with his large pulley can have less velocity and more thrust, and with a high turning speed, and or high hand speed can produce a speed equal to a snap releaser who's hand speed is limited (for a given player), as snap release noticeably restricts maximum hand speed homer's words...

If you think that the clubhead is slowing down after it uncocks you are completely missing the pulley concept.

true kinetic energy is certainly available to a sweep releaser, as long as the hips pull the shoulders ,pulls the arms, pulls the hands, pulls the shaft, pulls the clubhead all the way through the ball.

who brought up hand/arm effort anywhere? if the hands are seeking their delivery line this is not steering.


mj maybe you are thinking of impact deceleration which is a completely separate factor. when the club releases the angular momentum is proportionate to the turning speed. there are so many power sources that can be configured in so many ways, snap release, random sweep, sweep release, hitting, swinging, overlapped accumulators, sequenced accumulators, turning speed, hand speed, swing radius, thrust, velocity, etc... there is more than one way to create maximum distance for a given player, some create speed one way others another way.

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe Like the clubhead, I've tried a lot of things that didn't quite make it!

try harder, no quitting

Originally Posted by whip first bolded, the sweep releaser with his large pulley can have less velocity and more thrust, and with a high turning speed, and or high hand speed can produce a speed equal to a snap releaser who's hand speed is limited, as snap release noticeably restricts maximum hand speed, not my words homer's...

whatever speed it creates with whatever pulley size aka however soon or late you release the club shortly after release the speed created will remain constant as long as you keep turning.

If you think that the clubhead is slowing down after it uncocks you are completely missing the pulley concept.

second bolded.. true kinetic energy is certainly available to a sweep releaser, as long as the hips pull the shoulders pulls the arms pulls the hands pulls the shaft pulls the clubhead all the way through the ball it is just more thrust than velocity as all the accumulators are going nearly at once.

third bolded.. who brought up hand/arm effort anywhere? if the hands are seeking their delivery line this is certainly not steering.


mj maybe you are thinking of impact deceleration which is a completely separate factor...



try harder, no quitting

1st bolded - In a TSP Swing, your hand speed is limited by right shoulder speed, unless you throwaway #4, which is pivot power, in which case even if you could spin like a politician, it won't do much good. And, if you're also sweep releasing, which is #2 throwaway, you've thrown away your two power sources! And, even if #4 isn't thrown away, why could someone turn faster sweeping than snapping?

2nd bolded - No it won't remain constant in the real world - too much friction in the human machine - remember the word "tries"?

3rd bolded - You are carrying the pulley analogy too far. In the golf swing, the pulley section is less than 90 degs, not 180, and the hand speed isn't constant as it is in the endless belt pulley.

4th bolded - I brought it up. If you over accelerate the hands from the top and sweep release, you will have to steer to get the hands to beat the club head to the ball.

5th bolded - And if my Aunt had testicles, she would be my Uncle, which would also be a completely separate factor.

6th bolded - You can't push a shopping cart any faster than you can run, no matter how hard you try.

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe I don't think so. The farther ahead the hands are at impact, the later the release, and so more head speed, because the max speed is attained shortly after release point and then starts slowing.

Lots of variables for this to achieve the status of axiomatic....

Look at the pics in the first post...grip type is a HUGE difference....also...fat jack BOMBED it.....hands forward ala Gainey vs. Nicklaus.....Players like Lee Buck/Gainey have to get the amount of shaft lean to have the face open enough so they don't hit it left of left....for mere mortals could be problematic....cats like Mac O'Grady Philly McGlennerd ....love the shaft lean but may air mail a green by hitting a 7 iron 210....it may look sexier .... but who's packin' the hardware???

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe I don't think so. The farther ahead the hands are at impact, the later the release, and so more head speed, because the max speed is attained shortly after release point and then starts slowing.

I am not debating the fact that a snap release can have more speed than a sweep release, I am only addressing your statement that after release it starts slowing

from 2-m-1 basic power
...Centrifugal acceleration is staunchly proportional to the angular speed of its center and reaches a maximum speed almost instantly after release and tries to remain constant...

a sweep release can still be a true kinetic chain.

the flat left wrist and clubshaft being in-line with the left arm is the number one geometrical alignment of the circle. arguably the basis for precision geometry, gainey and trevino's strong grips and forward lean have geometry of their own but it is not congruent with the machine concept's geometry.

btw i like their strong grips with the shaft lean over exaggerated forward lean with a normal grip and ARCHED left wrist as we see some tgmers focusing only on forward lean and not realizing that it is within the context of the structure, the release, the roll, the geometry, and the flat left wrist. The clubhead should be in-line like nicklaus to produce the machine concept's intended geometry.

So because it reaches maximum speed shortly after release and stays constant a ball hit Well prior to full extension vs. one that is hit just prior to full extension will have the same speed as long as you do not disturb the force. this would mean that a ball position further back in the stance will produce a shot that may go further (given the same release point and all other factors being equal) because they will have equal speed but one with less loft turning a pw into a short 8 iron like ob says. although gainey has a similar ball position to nicklaus', it's as if gainey is playing the ball way back in his stance. the extreme forward lean and delay facilitated by the strong left hand grip like bucket said

sweep release or random sweep users can still produce a clubhead speed equal to their snap release counterpart with a high turning speed or high hand speed.

Originally Posted by whip I am not debating the fact that a snap release can have more speed than a sweep release, I am only addressing your statement that after release it starts slowing

from 2-m-1 basic power
...Centrifugal acceleration is staunchly proportional to the angular speed of its center and reaches a maximum speed almost instantly after release and tries to remain constant...

Like the clubhead, I've tried a lot of things that didn't quite make it!

As long as u keep turning it won't slow down it will remain constant

I thought this would be as good a spot as any to ask some questions concerning maximum lever length. The photo showing Jack with left arm clubshaft and clubhead all under his left shoulder at impact is where my uncertainty begins. At low point what condition is the left wrist in? Is low point always going to have the left wrist in FUV condition or can it be FLV? Secondly if low point is always opposite the left shoulder and I positioned my ball opposite this point, does my impact fix position have my left wrist FLV or FUV? If the former wouldn't I still be able to take turf because my primary lever hasn't reached full extension?

2-P The Wristcock The uncocking of the Flat Left Wrist is a Perpendicular Motion--not a Horizontal Motion (as defined in 4-0). The Left Wrist (6-B-2) is Cocked and Uncocked per Stroke Pattern (Chapter 12),per 4-B and per 4-D. It normally moves from "Cocked" to "Level" between Release and Impact and "Level" to "Uncocked" during the follow-through.

I guess the word "NORMALLY" makes room for exceptions to the quote above. Would be very interested in yours and others thoughts.

Originally Posted by whip Ive been thinking about the effect of primary lever length at impact, my opinion is that for a swinger maximum power at impact would be the clubshaft and left arm In-line, the butt of the club pointing exactly at the left shoulder. Vs for a hitter this would be less important, more dependent on the thrust against the shaft and the left arm and club shaft being directly in line would be less important. so say at impact one swinger has the left arm and clubshaft in-line exactly vs a player who has the shaft leaning forward outside the left shoulder, who is utilizing the primary lever better? I would think that if it were inline the lever would be longest, but really the length of the left arm and clubshaft are maintained. any thoughts on this? of course this is more tour players concern as most golfers have trouble getting the flat left wrist at all

[attachment unavailable]

I think cocked to level goes with the territory. But I think there are ways to hit the ball where it doesn't go completely to uncocked, ways where the shaft never runs straight up the Left Arm, but runs towards a "virtual" hinge that sits somewhere below the left arm, closer to the elbow plane.

Originally Posted by BerntR I think cocked to level goes with the territory. But I think there are ways to hit the ball where it doesn't go completely to uncocked, ways where the shaft never runs straight up the Left Arm, but runs towards a "virtual" hinge that sits somewhere below the left arm, closer to the elbow plane.

If low point is always opposite the left shoulder and I positioned my ball opposite this point, does my impact fix position have my left wrist FLV or FUV? If the former wouldn't I still be able to take turf because my primary lever hasn't reached full extension?

Thanks for your thoughts Bernt, what about my last questions taking turf from low point?

Good question, Slazman,

I think FUV at impact is gonna be a problem. It will mean that the right foream is (probably) under plane, or that you have a chicken wing like forearm through the ball to keep it on plane. I think when it happens more towards the target and not towards the target line. I'm must thinking out loud here. I've never given this much thought, though. I mainly look for enough lag to produce good speed before impact and sustained lag pressure through the ball and I don't think the second part is possible if the hands fly up high before impact. Which they have to do to reach impact with a FUV left hand.

Originally Posted by Slazman If low point is always opposite the left shoulder and I positioned my ball opposite this point, does my impact fix position have my left wrist FLV or FUV? If the former wouldn't I still be able to take turf because my primary lever hasn't reached full extension?

Regardless of low point, you have to understand that you MUST NOT be uncocked at impact, because you cannot properly compress a golf ball unless there is uncocking from impact to separation.