Base of the Neck vs. Through the Head "centers"

Ok.....

Let's assume that we KNOW that there should be no SWAY of the 'pivot center.'

So, you can use the "through the head" center or the "base of the neck" center.

Which one has the BEST stroke pattern performance.

I will define this 'performance' in the following way:

A. Best able to create and sustain lag pressue
B. Best able to 'draw' a straight plane line
C. Best able to control hinge action

Got it?

Ok.

Here is my OPINION:

I think creating and sustaining lag pressue is easier with the base of the neck.

I think staying or getting 'on top' (or behind, if you prefer) of the sweetspot with your #3 pressure point—as in Horizontal Hinging—is easier with the base of the neck.

I think performing ANGLED hinge action or vertical hinge action to be easier with the "through the head" center.

If you bend you plane line too much to the left as a rule, you will find it easier to NOT bend it left with the "base of the neck" center.

If you bend the plane line to the right as a rule, , you will find it easier to NOT bend it right with the "through the head" center.

What do ya'll think?

Great answer, Lynn.

Simple is always better.

If you do not want to respond to the strengths and weaknessness of these two perfectly 1-L compliant procedures, I completely understand.

But, maybe some of the others will comment.

Is it a 100-0 victory for one method oevr the other? or is there possible advantages to one over the other.

Let's keep this on topic, if possible.

Another great answer, Lynn!

But, in case anyone else would like to answer, here is a couple of points to consider about my answer:

If you use the "through the head" pivot center, your swing center—the left shoulder—travels—in a shorter arc on the backstroke.

Also, if you use the "through the head" pivot center, the possiblity for a circle delivery path, becomes far greater than the "base of the neck center."

But, the "through the head" picot center nearly assures the better player that the shoulder turn won't be too flat.

As far as the angles on the pin, I choose to only comment on the thesis of this thread: Is one PERFECTLY still pivot center, TECHNICALLY superior to the other...

...and why?

Ch-6 Golf My Way - "Golf's One Unarguable, Universal Fundamental"

I regard keeping the head very steady, if not absolutely stock still throughout the swing as the bedrock fundamental of golf. It is inviolable as far as I'm concerned.

Who wrote this - only the greatest player that ever played the game ! The winner of 18 Majors !

The next time you are looking for something to watch on the practice tee at a PGA tour event, study the players' heads as they swing. You'll see a few that swivel - mine included. But I'd be very surprised if you see many that move up, down, or from side to side.

Hitting the ball as hard as I do, I know I couldn't break 80 if I were unable to keep my head in one place throughout the swing

Swaying is a cheap way to get the club back and up without turning and coiling the torso; without really stretching and working the back and leg muscles.

He's only the greatest player that ever lived....

Originally Posted by brianmanzella
Here is my OPINION:

I think creating and sustaining lag pressue is easier with the base of the neck.

I think staying or getting 'on top' (or behind, if you prefer) of the sweetspot with your #3 pressure point—as in Horizontal Hinging—is easier with the base of the neck.

I think performing ANGLED hinge action or vertical hinge action to be easier with the "through the head" center.

If you bend you plane line too much to the left as a rule, you will find it easier to NOT bend it left with the "base of the neck" center.

If you bend the plane line to the right as a rule, , you will find it easier to NOT bend it right with the "through the head" center.

What do ya'll think?

B,

I have no beef with you. But I think you have this debate thing a bit backwards.

No offense meant here but it seems to me that the burden of proof would be in your court. In your above post you have said "in my opinion" and "I think." You are debating in your AWAY jersey. The book has defined the Stationary Post in 1-L and also the stationary head in 2-0. Mr. Kelley provided his supporting evidence. Seems to me for a true debate you would need to provide your evidence as to the above, not Mathew.

Mr. Kelley has given support for his theory. If you think the base of the neck offers better compression in some instances, we need your science. Please don't call that Mandrin dork though

Best regards,

B

When you later said in regards to the great pictures Martee made.

This is the first post

The picture are not in a 'sequence,' so what?

Actually this is absolutely incorrect! They are a sequence and now I fixed the frames 'in photoshop' after being scanned badly, we can see quite clearly that they are a match just how far off this line is...

I would like to keep this thread in this thread, Lynn, sir.

I am looking for an answer of any mechanical validity of what happens to the PATTERN and what happens to the club in both methods and if there are any advantages to either.

In this fresh thread, where I started a topic that I could control—somewhat—I have no problem asking, listening, questioning, etc.

If anyone wishes to put me in a box, this is the box I would like to be in.

....mechanical validity....no tricks, no obscure quotes, no tour player opinion...

Just fresh science.

I am looking at your very well done pictures, Mathew...

Forget Snead, what are you trying to show?

The correct move or the incorrect one in your mind?

Thanks for the response in advance,

Brian Manzella.

I need an answer to my question, if you please...

let me rephrase...

Matthew, is the backswing you made in the shirt-less pics, the model one in your opinion, or an incorrect one, in your opinion?

Mathew nice work but as I sit here ready to go to bed, one has to ask oneself the question, Are these the images you want floating around in your head as you go to bed?

I suggest Lynn have you work with a model, how about we have Lynn get you connected up with say Natalie Gulbis and you can do the technical stuff, she can model it?

Nice work...

Originally Posted by Yoda Hey, who needs all that...

We've got Mathew nekkid!

woohoo!! lol

Originally Posted by brianmanzella I would like to keep this thread in this thread, Lynn, sir.

I am looking for an answer of any mechanical validity of what happens to the PATTERN and what happens to the club in both methods and if there are any advantages to either.

In this fresh thread, where I started a topic that I could control—somewhat—I have no problem asking, listening, questioning, etc.

If anyone wishes to put me in a box, this is the box I would like to be in.

....mechanical validity....no tricks, no obscure quotes, no tour player opinion...

Just fresh science.

As of yet there is no box because we have not seen any "fresh science" to support your thesis . . .

I can hear ole Mandrin revin' up the slide rule.

Mathew . . .you must be commended on your grooming habits. Do you wax? Just kidding very illustrative pics as always!

I simply will not get off topic.

and right now, the floor is Mathew's.

and the answer to my question is.....?

Originally Posted by brianmanzella Ok.....

Let's assume that we KNOW that there should be no SWAY of the 'pivot center.'

So, you can use the "through the head" center or the "base of the neck" center.

Which one has the BEST stroke pattern performance.

I will define this 'performance' in the following way:

A. Best able to create and sustain lag pressue
B. Best able to 'draw' a straight plane line
C. Best able to control hinge action

Got it?

Ok.

Here is my OPINION:

I think creating and sustaining lag pressue is easier with the base of the neck.

I think staying or getting 'on top' (or behind, if you prefer) of the sweetspot with your #3 pressure point—as in Horizontal Hinging—is easier with the base of the neck.

I think performing ANGLED hinge action or vertical hinge action to be easier with the "through the head" center.

If you bend you plane line too much to the left as a rule, you will find it easier to NOT bend it left with the "base of the neck" center.

If you bend the plane line to the right as a rule, , you will find it easier to NOT bend it right with the "through the head" center.

What do ya'll think?

I actually really like the points you made in this first post Brian.

Especially the bit about Horizontal/Angled Hinging.

...

OK.

I realize Homer is the man and all that.....he uh- KINDA knew his stuff.

But, I must say...

I personally like how Brian is going about all this..... I like a lot of his points and how he is explaining them. I like to hear real "why" answers.

I think anyone can just agree with Homer....and know the book....

...and you know what....for a lot of people, that COULD suffice as the be-all-end-all.....but I like to hear a little "why," personally.

And I really do think Brian is making a good argument.....it's hard to argue against Homer (is it really against him though?), but I think Brian actually has a legit debate here.

I don't really want to take sides and get yelled at over here.....so I hope someone appreciates where I'm going with this.....we can all learn from this whole discussion I think.

Just a reminder to keep this a debate and not a fight.

Originally Posted by Yoda
6. Homer Kelley told me personally that he chose the Head because "if you move your Head you can see more under the Ball." He also said there could be problems with using 'between the shoulders' as a center, but he did not elaborate. That discussion was recorded.

Do you think that Homer would change his mind on this subject in later editions if he was still around???.

Originally Posted by Yoda Re-read the post, Birdie.

You will find five opinions.

You will find zero 'whys.'

OKOK you got me Mr. Blake.

What I should have said is that I personally would like to hear more than "This is what Homer said in The Golfing Machine."

Again....Homer IS the man.....but I would like to know more before I regard having a completely Stationary Head and a Tripod (head exactly between the feet) as something which ALL golfers must attain (even though it's not an Imparative).

I know Homer has done all these years of research...etc. etc. etc. so maybe everyone should just believe him. Maybe that's what we should do.....

.....but I dunno.....

....Brian seems to really believe in what he's saying.....and much more importantly, I believe he does have something in his argument. It is a reasonable debate IMO.

...

Lynn- do you have any reasons why you think Brian is wrong based on your OWN experience (teaching experience especially)?

I suspect you must have something.

BTW, I think if you and Brian could both lay out exactly what you think in one plane that would greatly clarify what’s what been going on in the recent threads on this topic.

Here are a few things that we should know:

-Tripod (head directly between feet) ALWAYS?
…exceptions?:

-Stationary (no Sway) ALWAYS?
…exceptions?:

-What’s ideal? Anything?
OR…in which circumstances is WHAT ideal?

-Through neck centre viable option as part of PERMANENT procedure?
…or only to “train pivot” or w/e?

Add if you care to.

A proper RFT does not require a moving head. So why move it? Check out the latest Ted Fort pics
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2005.

Originally Posted by brianmanzella Good points, Marty!

Try this experiment:

Have a pal hold your head dead still.

Have another hold a finger BARELY above the base of the 'neck bone.'

Make a backstroke.

What happens?

The 'neck bone' moves WAY forward.

What is that, reverse swaying?

I don't know what it is exactly, but it is NOT rotation about a fixed point...

'cause the point is MOVING.

Guess I don't know where the neck bone is, cause yes I can feel the outside move, but it is rotating around. At issue is where is the center point and does it move. Is it the 'thoracic spine rotation center'? Now I did your test sitting down, I was attempting to minimize any movement other than the shoulders, don't know if that will make a difference.

The more I read what you write, I guess I am of the opinion that you don't subscribe to 1-L-1/2 cause you keep introducing movements and seem to be supporting your position that even the base of the neck movement is not only permitted but desired.

[quote]

Originally Posted by brianmanzella Oh yeah...

...also notice I cleaned up your work , (much clearer...lol)

Hmmmmm No.....

Your yellow line goes right through Sam's Shoulder Blade...lol

Now, I knew there would be no picture with lines on it that would prove/convince you to you what im about to show you - so I took extreme measures ....lol



Now I don't believe you can argue with this line right ?....

Ok, lets look at the backstroke...



Notice how at address the spine is tilted towards the target and how the spine leans away from the target....

Now look at the photo of snead again beside me....



Is this supposed to be cleaning up my work, or you just not doing your homework ?

OK. I am posting this not necessarily to further this debate but for the benefit of those interested in Mr. Kelley's position on the Head as the Pivot Center.

Since this is a Forum and website devoted to the advancement of G.O.L.F. I will bore you or engage you (depending on your voracity for reading the Yellow Book) with the areas in which the word "head" is mentioned in the 6th edition of The Golfing Machine. These quotes have been taken out of context so I hope that they will not be misleading as a result. I think these quotes are illustrative on Mr. Kelley's position. Anything not in bold is MY OPINION and to be interpreted as such.

As stated, the Stationary Post is defined in 1-L titled MACHINE CONCEPT. Here we are told that the player is to view his body as a "machine" which of course is the central thesis of the work.

1-L MACHINE CONCEPT
1. The Stationary Post (player’s head) accurately returns the Clubhead through the ball (Centered Arc).
2. The Post may turn (Pivot) but does not “sway” or “bob.”

The word HEAD next appears in Chapter 2: Statement of Principle. The word PRINCIPLE is defined as "A rule or law concerning the functioning of natural phenomena or mechanical processes." So in Chapter 2 Mr. Kelley is stating what he believes to be the rules governing the Machine's operation.

The Mechanics of Golf is the production and manipulation of the “Line of Compression.” Precision is recognizing and reconciling minute differentiations

A. The Three Basic Essentials are:
1. A stationary Head

Per the above the Mechanics of Golf is about STLOC and Mr. Kelley believed the Stationary Head to be ESSENTIAL to this process. Essential is defined as "Basic or indispensable; necessary." Imperative is defined as "Having the power or authority to command or control." Therefore the Stationary Head doesn't have the power to control the LOC. However, it is indispensable. So pretty important?

So on we go to the next HEAD . . .

2-H SHOULDER MOTIONS
The spine, between the shoulders, is the center of the Shoulder Turn only, not of the Left Arm, except by specific extension of the Swing Radius. Because, Swinging from the Wrists, the Left Shoulder, the Right Elbow, the Waist or the Feet, show it to have just to many exceptions. Though the “Head” Pivot Center is recommended, it is not at all mandatory.

But the Shoulders do have crucial On Plane functions – synchronizing and aligning the Pivot Motion and Thrust with those of the Power Package (Chapter 6). “On Plane” Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by titling its axis – the spine.

Being a part of the Pivot and the Power Package, the Right Shoulder must reconcile them by moving with the greatest precision for thrust, speed, direction and distance. (7-3) So the Right Shoulder does not flap around haphazardly – it has many responsibilities. And variations in its Impact location will vary the Right Elbow’s Impact Bend and so may alter the Impact alignment of the Clubface.

So in the section above, Mr. Kelley explicitly states that the "Head" Pivot Center is RECOMMENDED but not NECESSARY. Please notice the sections in red. I think this will give you an idea of what the "Head" Pivot Center relates to . . . the mission critical functions of the club being On-Plane, the alignment of the Clubface, and the location of the Right Elbow.

Does this mean that movement of the head could impact the following? being On-Plane or off-plane? Low Point? The alignment of the Clubface? Draw your conclusions . . .

2-J-1 IMPACT ALIGNMENTS
Clubface alignment also includes the requirement that the center of the Clubhead arc be so located that the Clubface strikes the ball before it strikes the ground. If the Clubface is centered on the ball while soled behind it any distance whatsoever, the radius of the Clubhead arc must be shortened or the Club will meet the ground precisely where it had been soled. This procedure of shortening the radius of the stroke is popular – that is pulling in the Hands at Impact by raising the head and shoulders a guess-timated distance, or pulling back the Left Shoulder, or bending the Left Arm, all with that same “precision.”

The word HEAD again appears in Impact Alignments, a section of obvious importance. It seems that via section in red, a head that moves results in a shortened radius and thus a loss of precision in Impact Alignments, the title of this section. This goes a long with the next place HEAD appears, Bobbing.

3-F-7-C BOBBING is raising and/or lowering the Head by faulty movement of the back or knees, and disrupts the Shoulder-to-ball radius.

7-14 HIP TURN The Hip Turn as a Stroke Component is strictly the product of the Knee Bend and the Waist Bend. Not otherwise could the weight be shifted and the Shoulder Turn Axis be tilted without moving the Head. A Hula Hula flexibility allows the Hips and Shoulders to be independent but coordinate and so avoid Right Elbow – and – Hip interference and its “Roundhousing” Throwaway (4-D-0) during the Start Down – the Delivery Line ROLL PREPARATION (12-3-22).

Except for its being, in itself, the Weight Shift, the Hip Turn is a motion permitting – rather than causing – the other effects, actions and motions of the Pivot. Weight Shift is strictly a HIP MOTION. Substituting a Head Motion and/or Knee Motion will make Swaying inevitable.

Per the above seems that Mr. Kelley felt that head movement has some serious implications.

7-16 KNEE ACTION Actually, the primary function of Knee Action – as with Waist Bend – is to maintain a motionless head during the Stroke.

9-1 ZONE #1 includes all the elements of Body movement and balance, and defines the geometrical alignments and relationships of the Body Components. The Pivot involves twisting the body and shifting the weight during the Stroke so as to maintain balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso.

Per the above the "motionless head" is linked to balance, which of course is the 2nd BASIC ESSENTIAL.

AXIS TILT Example – pouring tea.
Mechanical – To change direction, the helicopter Pilot alters the plane of the rotating blades by tilting their axis in the new direction.
Golf – To change the plane of the Shoulder Turn without moving the Head, the golfer must tilt the Shoulder Axis by moving the Hips.

BALANCE Example – a hula dancer.
Mechanical – State in which all opposing forces cancel each other out.
Golf – Holding the center of gravity of the body inside The Stance without moving the Head.

Again the "motionless head" linked to Balance i.e. the Second Basic Essential.

PIVOT Example – revolving door.
Mechanical – That motion of a body moving around a center point.
Golf – A multiple universal-joint assembly between the Stationary Head and the Stationary Feet holding the Clubshaft “On Plane” by positioning and adjusting the Lever Assembly, through the #3 Accumulator, as directed by the Right Forearm.
Here the Stationary Head is linked to the clubshaft being On-Plane and to Accumulator #3 which of course controls Hinge Action which controls the Clubface which controls the golf Ball.

STATIONARY HEAD Example – a spinning skater.
Mechanical – Same as Pivot Center.
Golf – Chosing the Head – rather than Between the Shoulders as the Pivot Center.

So there it is as written by Mr. Kelley. It is my conclusion based on the above that the Stationary Head is Essential in the areas of being On-Plane, Clubface Alignment, Right Elbow Location, Balance, Low Point, the strokes full Radius, Full Lever Extension and a three dimensional Impact sustaining the LOC.

Inexorably, the adroit betwixt our midst, shall endeavor to formulate a response.

Wonderful response Mathew!

I was looking for something a bit more—how do you say—geometric or scientific, than Jack Nicklaus quotes.

But, I LOVE Jack Nicklaus, so should I start listening to all his advice in all 10 of his instruction books?

I thought maybe, Mathew, that you couyld draw one of those little illustrations of yours that will show the superiority of one of the "pivot center" methods.

Hi folks...typing this from West Palm Beach, about to play Seminole...so I'm in a good mood

The neck is a valid 'pivot center' it may not be the best geometrically, but it works for many.

Let's bump this whole discussion over to this new thread:

Originally Posted by Yoda The Golfing Machine® as we know it was the labor of genius for forty-two years.

The Stationary Head as the Pivot Center was a bedrock point from which that genius never varied.

So, do I think Homer Kelley would have switched to a Non-Centered Pivot over the last twenty years?

No.

In fact, he codified the Pivot Center concept in the as-yet-unpublished 7th edition as the Pivot Swing Center Tripod.

Do I think he would have embraced a different Pivot Center?

No.

Remember, his primary reference during the early years was Ben Hogan's Power Golf, the very same text from which photos have been extracted to build a case for the 'between the shoulders' Pivot Center.

Would he have changed his mind had he found evidence to the contrary?

Absolutely he would have.

But then again, in more than forty years...

He didn't.

Yoda~

I don't believe there has been a reference to the audios.

In an audio Mr. Kelley comments on why the head while acknowledging the neck may be more geometrically correct. He goes on to indicate it remained for him to confirm the geometrically correct conclusion.

When the Hogan photos were posted a thought was why from that period? Your comments about Power Golf are a reminder that Hogan's instructional influence did not begin with 5 Lessons in 1957.

Do you have an opinion on why a Hogan position with the shaft parallel is typically the one of comparison? For example, there is the one used here and the one on the next page of the book with the shaft beyond parallel, also illustrated in 5 Lessons, which rarely gets attention?

Finally, on swing sequence, a 1985 version with 4-iron was published in the October 1997 issue of Golf Digest. The frame at or close to the top was for some reason not from the same swing as the remaining frames.

DRW

What other thread is Brian talking about?

roll - gybe: Thanks. At least I know someone read my post

Originally Posted by Vandal What other thread is Brian talking about?

roll - gybe: Thanks. At least I know someone read my post

This one http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2025

not a historian in any way or form........but this is likely similar to what broke the Baptists away from the Lutherens back in 1789 or so.............just an analogy,

keep the forest in view, dont focus in on 1 tree

Originally Posted by Yoda So, what he is saying is that the spine, not the Head, is the Pivot's true geometric center (and not the Head). However, he is also saying that for practical purposes, the golfer is better off using the Head because the 'point between the shoulders' "...is not nearly as dependable."

I sooo agree with that.